Speaker Placement and K-Horn (Can it image?)

[rgdawsonco]

After living in my house for 13 years, I realized my living room might be a good room for K-Horns. It is about 17 feet by 13 feet and has a tall vaulted ceiling. My understanding is that K-Horns would like to be placed at the corners on the long wall 17 feet apart, with my listening position about 13 feet away from the center point between the K-Horns. This recommended placement seems really wide to me, but pretty close to recommended for K-Horns as far as I can tell from the K-Horn manual. So to see what this might sound like, I hauled my big ol' KLF-20s up from the basement and plopped them in the corners, aimed as K-Horns would be, to see how this arrangment sounds.

Well, not too good. My test music was a Mozart piano concerto (Rudolph Serkin) and I was listening for a stable piano location. No dice. The piano was coming from everywhere. The image was just lost.

Now, these KLF-20s image superbly in their original location where they are about 8 feet apart along a wall with no corners with a listening position about 10 ft away from that wall. In this case you can reach out and touch the piano. Its rock solid, every note.

I have heard people say the K-Horns image well, but I'm finding it hard to believe they would with this layout. But then again, zillions of K-Horn fanatics cannot be wrong. So what's the deal? Is this a case where the K-Horns would work well and the KLF-20's would not based on their repective designs and based on the fact that the K-Horn was actually designed for a room and spacing like this?

[Champagne taste beer budget]

I'm simply going to say that you have a fairly small room for the KHorns to do their best, though they will work, but at the same time I don't feel a comparison to KLF-20's is appropriate. Do you have good, square corners? If not, don't even consider the KHorns, they require a corner as much as a subwoofer requires a cross at the appropriate hz.

[ben.]

Well, the KLF are surely not Klipschorns. I'm sure they are nice, but it's really not a fair test of the big girls' abilities to just throw the 20s where the Khorns would sit. But I'm sure you know that.

In all fairness though, imaging (by this I mean the ease with which you can discern the precise location of a particular instrument in the stereo image) and solo piano music are not the strongest areas fro Klipschorns. I think they'd smoke the KLF series, but there are other things they do much better.

I've got many many solo piano recordings that sound superb through my system (primarily old analog recordings using traditional Tonmeister recording techniques), but they didn't sound great until I improved my system to where it is today. However, pinpoint imaging is seldom the goal especially with legit piano recordings. They're looking more for spaciousness and depth often at the expense of focus.

A better test of imaging would be more modern multitrack pop/rock stuff, I think. My closefield listening position is quite different from what you are contemplating, but they used to be in my living room which had very similar dimensions other than unfortunate 8' ceilings. Localization was superb, but is better now. Unfortunately, in this small space there are other tradeoffs that I value more... but I listen to more music simply due to the household functions of the rooms in question, and that's what really matters...

Anyway I think my answer is yes, though there are surely other choices that can do better if that is your primary objective.

[DrWho]

The sweet spot in your 17x13 foot room with the khorns on the long wall would be 8.5 feet from the front wall (putting you 4.5 feet from the rear of the room). Is this where you were listening to your KLF-20's?

[jbsl]

My best friend use to dj at parties with La Scalas in rooms 40-50 feet wide and they imaged fantastic! He would fill those rooms with a sound that had guys standing next to the La Scalas just shaking their heads in amazment.

If you have never heard, I mean really heard what Klipschorns or La Scalas are really capable of, then you are in for a treat if you get the KHorns!

Just remember KHorns driven with average equipment will sound average. Make sure you have a system that will make them sing to their fullest potential.

Cornwalls might be another great choice for a room that size.

[Coytee]

Don't forget about the Jubilees, they'll not only be less critical on the corner requirements, they'll give you a harder punch AND a wider sweet spot.

[joessportster]

k-horns, actually dont HAVE to have perfect corners there are alot of little tricks to get around the problem of a perfectly square and plumb corner/wall, that said i have almost exactly the same size room as you except i have 8 foot ceilings. and my listening posistion is approx 9 feet back, i agree that pinpointing a instrument is tough i set and try often, this could be a symptom of room size i really cant say as i dont have a larger room yet.......... k-horns are however the best speakers i have ever heard in any size room, i use to have them in a 16 X 11 room and was very content there as well, i guess what im saying is dont let the lack of a perfect corner scare you away from them

Joe

[colterphoto1]

The sweet spot in your 17x13 foot room with the khorns on the long wall would be 8.5 feet from the front wall (putting you 4.5 feet from the rear of the room). Is this where you were listening to your KLF-20's?

EXACTLY right Doc. Perhaps this was the reason for the poor soundstage?

Depends on how that piano was mic'd on how well it would image with wide setup.

17x13 isn't too small of room for Khorns- don't sit along the back wall- you actually have to be pretty far forward in most rooms- a room can therefore be too big quite easily.

I doubt if a big DJ's party was a good listening test for imaging. It might have sounded good, but with all those bodies, sound would have been diffracted around the room.

Just my .02, some will disagree.

[mark1101]

Even by math you can only approximate. You'll never know until you set them up and plug them in. That's the problem.

But..you can always add a center channel if they don't image due to wide spacing. That's a nice fall back that will fix the issue.

There are also aftermarket networks that can help with imaging. These made a big difference in my room (24 x 18, Khorns on the 24' wall).

If it were my room with the dimensions you listed, I would not avoid Khorns or be that concerned about the dimensions as long as you have the corners. The corners are critical for getting the bass horn to work as designed. To me, it's the corners that are most important.

[BigBadBabyBoomer]

Coytee...

Can you 'splain the difference between the K-horn and the Jubilee in terms of placement and image formation distance - the optimum listening position in 25 x 20 room?

I still lack horns for the Oklahoma installation so maybe I really should put the cats out to mouse it and buy the jubilees and get right from the start?[8-|]

[jackpod]

I am glad this topic came up. I have had my Khorns now about 3 months. I have a 30X30 room, I sit dead center about 25ft from the front wall. A couple months back I added a Belle in the middle which helped immensley. From where I sit the sound is good, but if I stand up and move forward about 8 to 10 ' the sound is better (right in the cross hairs of the room) Sure I can pull my chair forward to listen but then I have to move it back to the 25' position to watch movies. ok so I am lazy and don't want to do that. I was thinking maybe I could unbolt the top hats and angle sligtly so the top hats point at me or I have been looking to maybe pick up a pair of Altec 511b's to put in place of the original top hats.

Ideas, suggestions, comments?

Jack

[Coytee]

Can you 'splain the difference between the K-horn and the Jubilee in terms of placement and image formation distance - the optimum listening position in 25 x 20 room?

I still lack horns for the Oklahoma installation so maybe I really should put the cats out to mouse it and buy the jubilees and get right from the start?[8-|]

I'm sure there are going to be others that will be better at it, but here's my take.

Presuming no false corners, the Khorn has to be snug into corner. As a result of that, it's going to be firing at a 45 degree angle into the room. Now, the room dimensions help dictate where the two speakers cross, using that line of fire, you have your sweet spot.

The Jubilees have a more finished horn. As I understand it, they're best when they are also put into a corner, but according to Roy, you can have them pulled away from the walls up to about ten inches, before any detrimental effects.

So, if you have THAT kind of space buffer, you can pull them out (as I've done) and angle them more to where your seating position is. The downside to this is, they are a bit more intrusive into the room, but (in my circumstance) they're still essentially in/at the corner so room intrusion is minimal.

My room is something like 16' across and the long dimension opens up into my dining room on one side and foryer on the other side, so it's kind of a funky location.

I've got them pulled away from the side walls and closer to being against the back wall (actually, somewhere in between that)

That puts the Jubilee and more importantly, the HF horn more "square" into my room and what I've found by that is the sweet spot is now BEHIND the glass table in the room where I can put a chair if I want (wife won't let me [] )

With my Khorns, the sweet spot was right in the middle of the table and I really didn't have the flexiblity to move it (sweet spot) around. With the Jubilees, I CAN move the sweet spot back by adjusting their location and aiming point a bit.

Also, with that itsy bitsy, conservative, shy, understated horn that sits on top of them [6], my experience is the sweet spot is a lot WIDER than it was with the Khorns (stock drivers/horns).

Ya really gotta hear it to really get it, because I'm not eloquent enough like some, to put all my perceptions into words.

I still lack horns for the Oklahoma installation so maybe I really should put the cats out to mouse it and buy the jubilees and get right from the start?

Given my experiences, I'd say unequivically "yes" as long as Mr. Budget allows. I think if anyone has room for a Khorn, LaScala or Belle... they either have plenty of room for a Jubilee, or are 90% there, so size isn't a big issue.

Do that and when you move back, you can slap the Belle's into the back wall for the beginning of a HT system too!! Later on, nab a single LaScala and toss a K402 on top of it for a center channel...

[colterphoto1]

yup, 25 normal seating + 10 feet forward gets you right where you should be.

it's easy math to get close. all right angles. on 30 foot wall the distance to center line is 15', so sweet spot is perpendicular to front wall at that point- and that far back. 15 ' back (plus or minus for personal preference and room decor) should be ideal.

It seems that in many cases, listeners have huge rooms and the furniture pushed nearly along the back wall? I don't have wife so don't understand this placement. Personally I like some space behind me, not just for surrounds to breathe, but I don't like my back up against the wall (literally or figuratively)

Unbolting the top hats is possible, you have to bump them forward a bit to get much swing out of them. This exaggerates the timing difference between LF and Mid/hi, but I don't think enough to matter. I'd put big bumper feet on their undersides if I were to unbolt them.

[Coytee]

Jack, I don't know if this will help your situation but to help what I perceive a similar situation to what I had, I ended up unbolting the tophat of my Khorns to allow them to angle out a bit. I couldn't get them angled out enough though, without it looking cheesy.

Later on, I slapped a pair of JBL-2404 tweeters on top to see what happened and that single thing ALONE was the most noticable change I made to them. Yes it sounded nice, but more important to ME, they took away most of the beaminess that was there. I could now hear a lot more of the top end in a larger area.

I was in process of gathering the JBL's and was going to get Al K's Trachorn upgrade. Getting the Jubilees stopped all that in it's tracks (in fact, I still have the JBL's and am not sure what I'm going to do with them yet)

To keep with my harping of "get a pair of Jubilees", if you DID, you could angle them towards your seating position with little (if any) loss of their output... furthermore, their output is so much better than the Khorn, you might love them even more. I've noticed that in my house, the Khorns (when "at volume" [6]) could be heard throughout the house (duh). With the Jubilees "at volume", not only can they be heard better throughout the house, they can be FELT better throughout the house. I can be upstairs on the other side of house and STILL feel the floor vibrate when they're pumping away. My Khorns NEVER did that.

Look at the big horn on the Jubilees... not only will they project out into your room, they'll project wider (imho) than your Khorns. Perhaps that alone would fix your concerns?

[Kudret]

My basement is 17x35 and the Khorns are along the 17

wall. When they were in the corners and I was sitting 8 from the front wall

the imaging sucked big time. Part of this problem (if not all) was probably due

to the support beam going across the ceiling in my basement. As I had to sit

too close to the speakers, I could not get used to the feeling that I was sitting

on the stage either.

Now they are away from the corners, 12 apart and toed in to

the listening position which is ~10 from the front wall. They sound and image

better now, but they still sound too forward to me. Of course, since they are

not in the corners they dont go as low either. I want to build false corners

and also try 511B midhorn but Ive already started looking for other speakers.

Based on my experience, if you dont have the right room

Khorns may not impress you.

[mark1101]

I went up to Richard's home and heard the Jubs. I actually bought Richard's Khorns. So I got to hear both in Richard's room.

The Jubs have a very highly flared horn and are only 2-way. So the dispersion is greater/wider at a shorter distance than the Khorn. Because they are 2-way speakers, I believe this also makes the image form at a shorter distance as well. They sound great up close, and consistent around the room. More consistent around the room than a Khorn.

The bass discharges out the front like a lascala, not down the side walls like a Khorn. This makes a BIG difference in the amount of bass you hear. In my opinion, the single best improvement. The room dependency is significantly reduced because of this design. The bass is like a tidal wave.

I was astounded by the amount of bass that comes out of the bins. Still I am. The design is very good, and it's hard to fault the sound.

But there are some negatives....so I'll discuss those as well.

Like everything today, they appear cost reduced. The whole top section is just a huge plastic horn, and the bass bin is MDF painted black. There are 3 drivers, two of them woofers. There is no network. Did I mention, no network? They are VERY pricey for what you get in my opinion. You pay for performance certainly not asthetics.

Plus, you need to purchase an outboard active network module that costs another grand at least, and you have to have the extra amp to run the top and bottom sections separately. You need to get the "program" to download into the unit from Klipsch.

Roy Delgado has been a great support figure for Richard and the others who have gone this route. But without this support, I doubt it would have been possible for Richard to get the jubilees running at all. No disrepect intended. But that's what I believe.

In the end there is no denying that the performance is very strong over the Khorn, but you just don't plug them in and have it happen.

I hope no one gets mad at me about this. I will probably do all of this in the future and get a pair of Jubilees myself. But to a new person on the forum, I think they need to know what's really involved.

You won't go wrong buying Khorns or Jubilees.

[jackpod]

Colter,

Yes, the furniture is almost along the back wall in a big half circle, not because of the wife but because of the 110" diag screen that hangs about 2' from the front wall. The room doubles as both home theater and 2 channel (well 2 channel with a Belle center and Heresy sourrounds) The DD 7.1 system is totally separate system (another story for another time) My recliner sits center and there is about 5' behind me and the other 3 recliners and 2 couches angle in from there.

Coytee,

I have added tweeters on top of the Khorns and the Belle. I am not going into any more detail than that, they are angled towards my listening position, and I mean added. The Khorns still have their K77's the added tweeters are fed from an electronic crossover into their own amps. I have read on here that several people have placed 511B's on top and are pleased with the results. One post points to a $6 adapter plate to allow use of the K55 on the 511B. It just seems that the 511b would have wider dispersion.

After what I went through convincing the wife to spend money on the Khorns, if I brought up Jubes' a post would appear here on the forum announcing my unexpected passing, how I must have not realized one of my hunting rifles was loaded while I was cleaning it. She would not agree, neither would the bank

I have some nice tall McIntosh feet. Maybe I will try angle-ing the top hats first

Thanks for the replies!

Jack

[Coytee]

As a side comment on the asthetics of the Jubilee (fancy black), I've got an email in right now, pending response to Roy.

I asked him essentially, if someone bought a pair of Jubilees, could said buyer send to Klipsch, some fancy 3/4" plywood and the factory use what they send.

If the answer is yes, then you (a purchaser) could buy any Rosewood, Walnut, Oak, Dogwood...... plywood you want, get it to them and have it be your fronts.

I phrased my question to him with the BUYER finishing the front of them, as I realize Klipsch might not want that issue in their hands (perhaps they'd not mind?)

[pzannucci]

You might try some room treatments also. The horns can splatter the image all over due to the sound deflecting off the walls.

[mark1101]

I didn't mean to say that the Jubilees looked BAD in black. I meant to say that they look CHEAP.

I'm sorry, great sounding speaker.....but the materials???? For almost $7,000....and with a plastic horn and no networks.......

Richard, the wood versions would be a great idea. The contour lines of the Jubilee are attractive....and a wooden version would look fantastic.

I can't get past the plastic horn though. It bothers me to no end. I don't mind the size or looks, just the black plastic.

Eventually, I believe all of this will come full circle like the LaScala did. It may take a few more years, but that's OK.