Choosing an amp on the basis of tone.....

[gaspr]

So very well said dhtman. I have to say that your listening

tastes are very much like my own. Just for clarification, when you say

that you like musical instruments to sound "live" or "real", you are

referring to studio recordings as opposed to recorded at a live venue,

are you not? Personally, with the exception of a few of the

"Unplugged" series of recordings, I really don't like live recordings.

[dhtman]

Thanks Mark. It was fun attempting to work out what it is I look for. Ten years ago, it would have been that PRaT (pace, rhythm and timing) nonsense but I like to thing I've evolved since then! []

Given the choice of amps you put forward, I think I might go the same way too - preferring absence of grain and better resolution over gut-thumping bass (in fact that's what I did about 18 months ago). I should probably reject both and keep on looking though!

To clarify, when I talk about the feel of the live performance, I'm not intending to re-create the sound of a large auditorium in my own room! There is however something very appealing about the crispness and effortless attack of a good horn PA speaker system that I enjoy, provided the levels are below the pain barrier. My reference for live music these days is choral concerts and jazz quartets in small venues without a full PA. It's the sound of unamplified live drums and acoustic bass that I strive to reproduce. I know when I have listened to recorded music on some systems, I have felt that sense of enjoyment, the hairs standing up on the back of my neck, that I have experienced at some of my most memorable concerts. So it's my reaction that is important - muddled and boomy certainly don't do it for me.

[dhtman]

Absolutely gaspr, I have quite a few live recordings and they rarely live up to the promise - two exceptions Clapton's Unplugged and Joe Zawinul's Brown Street.

I organized a few recording projects in the 90s and it's fascinating (tending towards boring) watching the care and attention that musicians and recording engineers pay to getting their instruments to sound "right" on the recording. When I play an LP or CD, I want to hear a voice or an instrument sound as close as possible to the real thing playing in my room.

I think those priorities/tastes we have would probably be the same for most folks who choose to buy specialist audio, it's just that the self-serving audio magazines and retailers make it very difficult for us. [8-)]

[mike stehr]

Nothing like going to rock concert, worming your way up to the front row, only to be stuck on one side right in front of the bass bins.......

[jacksonbart]

Just goes to show that the quality of the source material is more important than the quality of an adequately powered amp.

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

[DrWho]

[Y]

[NOSValves]

I don't know about this "not being able to recreate the feeling and perception of a "great" live event sound" Great live events do and did always exist. Many artist strive for just that but you usually find it in smaller venues then what may be found in major metropolitan areas for the sell out top stars. For instance the outdoor amphitheater here in Michigan formerly known as Pine Knob and now DTE Music center. That place is acoustically awesome and the artist that I do like that go there sound incredibly close to the music I can produce in both of my systems and it really isn't loud at this venue. When you leave these event your ears do not ring like at a huge auditorium rock concert. Lately Rick Flynn and I have seen a few concerts at this place thanks to Rick having access to excellent seats dead center 30 rows back fro his company at times.

Heck in my shop I find myself thinking I'm the lead singer or guitar player often when some special song that just begs to have that extra touch of the volume control. I call that true realism when music can make a 47 year old guy like me be told by his wife or teenage daughter I look like a fool! I think many folks are just way to uptighht to really enjoy themselves at times.

Now just so I'm clear here this does not mean I have to turn it up to sound great or enjoy music it just means it's just plain fun to do so some times. I could never except a system that did not have complete versatility myself. I personally think anyone that tunes their system to only sound great at a range form 75db to 85db is missing an entire world of occasional musical enjoyment. Man you have to tap your toe and get up and dance once and while!! Can someone really enjoy constantly analyzing every single note that floats through the air and not get bored? If so I just don't get it I guess. Music of all times through the ages and genre were meant to be danced too aor excite in some way and a little twist of the volume control is what it takes for some music plain and simple IMHO of course.

So is it all about how loud it gets?................HELL NO but by the same token is it all about how quiet you can listen?.........some where in-between with lots of other issues to boot.

Craig

[cjgeraci]

I don't know about this "not being able to recreate the feeling and perception of a "great" live event sound" Great live events do and did always exist. Many artist strive for just that but you usually find it in smaller venues then what may be found in major metropolitan areas for the sell out top stars. For instance the outdoor amphitheater here in Michigan formerly known as Pine Knob and now DTE Music center. That place is acoustically awesome and the artist that I do like that go there sound incredibly close to the music I can produce in both of my systems and it really isn't loud at this venue. When you leave these event your ears do not ring like at a huge auditorium rock concert. Lately Rick Flynn and I have seen a few concerts at this place thanks to Rick having access to excellent seats dead center 30 rows back fro his company at times.

Heck in my shop I find myself thinking I'm the lead singer or guitar player often when some special song that just begs to have that extra touch of the volume control. I call that true realism when music can make a 47 year old guy like me be told by his wife or teenage daughter I look like a fool! I think many folks are just way to uptighht to really enjoy themselves at times.

Now just so I'm clear here this does not mean I have to turn it up to sound great or enjoy music it just means it's just plain fun to do so some times. I could never except a system that did not have complete versatility myself. I personally think anyone that tunes their system to only sound great at a range form 75db to 85db is missing an entire world of occasional musical enjoyment. Man you have to tap your toe and get up and dance once and while!! Can someone really enjoy constantly analyzing every single note that floats through the air and not get bored? If so I just don't get it I guess. Music of all times through the ages and genre were meant to be danced too aor excite in some way and a little twist of the volume control is what it takes for some music plain and simple IMHO of course.

So is it all about how loud it gets?................HELL NO but by the same token is it all about how quiet you can listen?.........some where in-between with lots of other issues to boot.

Craig

Bravo, Craig - that post is priceless - and caused me to spit out my coffee stuck here late at work.

Yes, versatility. That's what I have strived for in my system. To do music at all volumes well - from a whisper to quite a bit louder.

Nice to have in reserve the few times you want it.

Carl.

[pauln]

let's see some measurements

http://www.milbert.com/tstxt.htm

[Deang]

Heck in my shop I find myself thinking I'm the lead singer or guitar player often when some special song that just begs to have that extra touch of the volume control.

That situation definitely necessitates a system capable of 110dB.

[dhtman]

I don't know about this "not being able to recreate the feeling and perception of a "great" live event sound"

I personally think anyone that tunes their system to only sound great at a range form 75db to 85db is missing an entire world of occasional musical enjoyment. Man you have to tap your toe and get up and dance once and while!! Can someone really enjoy constantly analyzing every single note that floats through the air and not get bored? If so I just don't get it I guess. Music of all times through the ages and genre were meant to be danced too aor excite in some way and a little twist of the volume control is what it takes for some music plain and simple IMHO of course.

So is it all about how loud it gets?................HELL NO but by the same token is it all about how quiet you can listen?.........some where in-between with lots of other issues to boot.

Craig

Hmm, I feel like I'm being misquoted here. What I actually wrote, in response to Mark saying that live concert sound can be garbage due to PA limitations was:

"To clarify, when I talk about the feel of the live performance, I'm not

intending to re-create the sound of a large auditorium in my own room!

There is however something very appealing about the crispness and

effortless attack of a good horn PA speaker system that I enjoy,

provided the levels are below the pain barrier."

I also mentioned that I usually listen at around 82dB, about 12 feet away from the speakers. That's a decent level that doesn't upset the rest of the family who would be watching tv, two rooms away.

When we got the Jubilees set up, my whole family was in the room, and we celebrated their arrival by jumping around to Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust" at 105dB and we had a ball. Craig, I can assure you that there's no way my system is "tuned to 75-85 dB" - it's way better than that! The great thing about good, high efficiency speakers is that they sound fantastic at all levels.

Tonight we had some friends round for dinner and the conversation turned to Elton John I dug out my wife's original copy of "Blue Moves" and we played it at a level where conversation was still possible and it was very enjoyable. Sure it was quieter than it would have been had I been listening alone, however it was just great to have three other people there sharing some classic music played through my system and discussing the memories triggered by the songs.

And I don't constantly analyze what I'm hearing - I described how I have learnt to evaluate audio equipment when I am buying/selecting by tapping in to how I feel. If it doesn't feel right then I try to figure out why. I have a set of favorite tracks that I like to hear - they challenge different aspects of system performance - timbre, transient performance, resolution and imaging, etc. and my experience is that not many demonstrations can do a good job on all those tracks. However I have managed to build a system that works well and when I listen to music I hear the music and not the system. The analysis was about how I choose amps, DACs, CD players etc., not how I listen to music.

[DrWho]

let's see some measurements

http://www.milbert.com/tstxt.htm

"Presented September 14, 1972"

How bout something a little more recent? I must confess not reading the article completely, but he mentioned a lot of issues that simply aren't problems with modern analog mixing consoles. Engineers were clipping the crap out of everything back then because they were fighting so hard against the noise floor - not to mention the occasional beneficial sound of intentional distortion (which was carefully selected and tweaked through mic placement and EQ choices).

[Audio Flynn]

Heh, heh, Clapton's Unplugged is a CD I have in my little evaluation rotation. As you said, it is a live CD that does bring a certain true feeling of liveness - the mic'ing is well done and they didn't over produce it. By contrast I have a live Dave Matthews that just reminds me of how awful PA speakers are in arenas - a big wall of loud compressed sound. I don't go to pop/rock concerts any longer but I can't recall ever being impressed by any aspect of the sound other than it was too darn loud to enjoy. I used to go to a lot of opera and classical concerts in the 90s and a good bit of the time my seats had odd sonic "variables" - perhaps a big suckout at 100Hz or too much reverb field or whatever. Now and then it was great, but mostly not. My point here being that in my living room, short of using computer generated multi-speaker processing tricks, there's no chance of creating or recreating the "live experience" beyond sheer loudness, which is mostly meaningless. When you sit 10 feet from a huge sound source, your ear always "knows" this distance and detects quite accurately that you are NOT in a hall or auditorium no matter how loud anything gets. If you had a really large room, perhaps 30 or 40 feet on a side, this effect would diminish substantially.

Andy Fairweather Low on one guitar and Eric on the other. Fun to search for the definition between the two.

[coda]

The Making Of A Triode (Youtube)

[coda]

worth a read,

Butler Audio Monad A100

[pauln]

... on the basis of tone... here is a large collection of tones and more: http://www.realmofexcursion.com/downloads.htm

[NOSValves]

I don't know about this "not being able to recreate the feeling and perception of a "great" live event sound"

I personally think anyone that tunes their system to only sound great at a range form 75db to 85db is missing an entire world of occasional musical enjoyment. Man you have to tap your toe and get up and dance once and while!! Can someone really enjoy constantly analyzing every single note that floats through the air and not get bored? If so I just don't get it I guess. Music of all times through the ages and genre were meant to be danced too aor excite in some way and a little twist of the volume control is what it takes for some music plain and simple IMHO of course.

So is it all about how loud it gets?................HELL NO but by the same token is it all about how quiet you can listen?.........some where in-between with lots of other issues to boot.

Craig

Hmm, I feel like I'm being misquoted here. What I actually wrote, in response to Mark saying that live concert sound can be garbage due to PA limitations was:

"To clarify, when I talk about the feel of the live performance, I'm not intending to re-create the sound of a large auditorium in my own room! There is however something very appealing about the crispness and effortless attack of a good horn PA speaker system that I enjoy, provided the levels are below the pain barrier."

I also mentioned that I usually listen at around 82dB, about 12 feet away from the speakers. That's a decent level that doesn't upset the rest of the family who would be watching tv, two rooms away.

When we got the Jubilees set up, my whole family was in the room, and we celebrated their arrival by jumping around to Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust" at 105dB and we had a ball. Craig, I can assure you that there's no way my system is "tuned to 75-85 dB" - it's way better than that! The great thing about good, high efficiency speakers is that they sound fantastic at all levels.

Tonight we had some friends round for dinner and the conversation turned to Elton John I dug out my wife's original copy of "Blue Moves" and we played it at a level where conversation was still possible and it was very enjoyable. Sure it was quieter than it would have been had I been listening alone, however it was just great to have three other people there sharing some classic music played through my system and discussing the memories triggered by the songs.

And I don't constantly analyze what I'm hearing - I described how I have learnt to evaluate audio equipment when I am buying/selecting by tapping in to how I feel. If it doesn't feel right then I try to figure out why. I have a set of favorite tracks that I like to hear - they challenge different aspects of system performance - timbre, transient performance, resolution and imaging, etc. and my experience is that not many demonstrations can do a good job on all those tracks. However I have managed to build a system that works well and when I listen to music I hear the music and not the system. The analysis was about how I choose amps, DACs, CD players etc., not how I listen to music.

Actually I wasn't quoting you or any one preson for that matter just making some general observations as to the direction of the discussion no harm or foul meant. When I quote someone I do just that. No big deal your reading more into my post then is really present. By the way getting the "tone" of the amp right is what will allow the volume knob a little more freedom without pain or worry of ear damage [] for those "Queen" moments.

Craig

[NOSValves]

Heck in my shop I find myself thinking I'm the lead singer or guitar player often when some special song that just begs to have that extra touch of the volume control.

That situation definitely necessitates a system capable of 110dB.

Are you hinting that it takes some major SPL to get my fat a$$ moving? If so I would appreciate you just coming out a saying it []

Craig

[cjgeraci]

I don't know about this "not being able to recreate the feeling and perception of a "great" live event sound"

I personally think anyone that tunes their system to only sound great at a range form 75db to 85db is missing an entire world of occasional musical enjoyment. Man you have to tap your toe and get up and dance once and while!! Can someone really enjoy constantly analyzing every single note that floats through the air and not get bored? If so I just don't get it I guess. Music of all times through the ages and genre were meant to be danced too aor excite in some way and a little twist of the volume control is what it takes for some music plain and simple IMHO of course.

So is it all about how loud it gets?................HELL NO but by the same token is it all about how quiet you can listen?.........some where in-between with lots of other issues to boot.

Craig

Hmm, I feel like I'm being misquoted here. What I actually wrote, in response to Mark saying that live concert sound can be garbage due to PA limitations was:

"To clarify, when I talk about the feel of the live performance, I'm not intending to re-create the sound of a large auditorium in my own room! There is however something very appealing about the crispness and effortless attack of a good horn PA speaker system that I enjoy, provided the levels are below the pain barrier."

I also mentioned that I usually listen at around 82dB, about 12 feet away from the speakers. That's a decent level that doesn't upset the rest of the family who would be watching tv, two rooms away.

When we got the Jubilees set up, my whole family was in the room, and we celebrated their arrival by jumping around to Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust" at 105dB and we had a ball. Craig, I can assure you that there's no way my system is "tuned to 75-85 dB" - it's way better than that! The great thing about good, high efficiency speakers is that they sound fantastic at all levels.

Tonight we had some friends round for dinner and the conversation turned to Elton John I dug out my wife's original copy of "Blue Moves" and we played it at a level where conversation was still possible and it was very enjoyable. Sure it was quieter than it would have been had I been listening alone, however it was just great to have three other people there sharing some classic music played through my system and discussing the memories triggered by the songs.

And I don't constantly analyze what I'm hearing - I described how I have learnt to evaluate audio equipment when I am buying/selecting by tapping in to how I feel. If it doesn't feel right then I try to figure out why. I have a set of favorite tracks that I like to hear - they challenge different aspects of system performance - timbre, transient performance, resolution and imaging, etc. and my experience is that not many demonstrations can do a good job on all those tracks. However I have managed to build a system that works well and when I listen to music I hear the music and not the system. The analysis was about how I choose amps, DACs, CD players etc., not how I listen to music.

Actually I wasn't quoting you or any one preson for that matter just making some general observations as to the direction of the discussion no harm or foul meant. When I quote someone I do just that. No big deal your reading more into my post then is really present. By the way gettong the "tone" of the amp right is what will allow the volume knob a little more freedom without pain or worry of ear damage [] for those "Queen" moments.

Craig

Craig, your last sentence is the point that I was attempting to make to Jeff. If you have quality gear such as tubes on the front end (a nice pre), and the right amp (plus the right drivers, horns, crossovers and room treatments don't hurt), it makes those "Queen" moments all the more enjoyable (and painless) because instead of distorted "mush" at some volumes, you still get clean...............going on up.

Carl.

[NOSValves]

Carl,

Right on brother!

Craig