Are you an apologetic audiophile?

[oldtimer]

I'm still not sure I get it Max but i think I'm close. If you have spent a lot of money on a very nice system you might feel like you have to apologize for spending so much, as compared to the guy who has also a nice system but maybe not as good and only spent roughly $2500? I can't answer that since I'm the low guy, but I don't feel that the high guy should hem and haw about being able to go for it. Nor do I feel superior to the big bucks guy.

"My Klipsch have sold several here INSTANTLY as to the value of a good music reproduction system" I love this comment. It demonstrates that until you show people what could be, let them experience it, they just don't know. However it has to be important to them in the first place to matter.

[Islander]

Well-written, Max, but it's neat in an odd way that we can have two types of snobbery: "I'm cooler/smarter/better than you because I spent more money than you!" as well as "I'm cooler/smarter/better than you because I spent less money than you!" Equal-opportunity snobbery!

Personally, I think "hi-fi enthusiast" has less of an ivory tower connotation, but it doesn't really matter. It's a multi-faceted hobby, like many others. When I rode a motorcycle, I wanted mine to be the fastest for the least money and to ride it every day. I didn't understand why some folks would build expensive fast machines and polish them rather than ride them, or bolt every chrome gewgaw they could find onto their machines.

The custom crowd would decry "catalog customs" that were built by ordering everything in the Drag Specialties or Arlen Ness catalog and (horrors!) paying someone to build their bike, feeling that hand-built with machining and welding skills was the only "real" way to do it.

Eventually, I realized that all hobbies are supposed to be fun, and there are many ways to have fun, even if I mentally roll my eyes at what some folks find cool. They're having fun, so they're succeeding in their endeavor.

Snobbery just makes the snob look bad.

[sunburnwilly]

Yes ,

I'm sorry that it was soo loud , but what can I do ? The Belles taunt me !

"Seriously , 115db sustained is only 32 on my processor . And that was with Maroon 5 !"

[dhtman]

An insightful thread. I remember being called an audiophile the first time, about 18 months ago, and was quite surprised because I'm very skeptical of audio magazine reviews and the black arts of four thousand dollar interconnects. For me all that matters is recreating the emotions of being at a live concert. That means making the right compromises. When I heard some of the Stereophile class A components at RMAF recently, it was obvious to me that the designers and reviewers hadn't used live music as a reference because the music sounded quite synthetic.

Certainly what sets audio apart from most other hobbies is the highly subjective talking-up of products in the language of a restaurant review and the associated pseudo-science and snake oil salesmanship.

With audio there's no correlation between outlay and sound quality. If you take golf, sub-aqua or sport flying, there are key measurable attributes for any equipment you buy that translate into better performance, reliability or safety.

Audio discussion boards tend to have their own "group think" - Audiogon's dominant belief seens to be "if you want good sound it will cost you" and expertise is perceived to be related to how much a poster has spent on their rig. Weird that - in any other area, cycling large chunks of cash on essentially the same purchase would be viewed as bad decision making!

Mark's point about discernment is very well made.

[maxg]

"With audio there's no correlation between outlay and sound quality."

Cant let that one go uncommented. I could accept the correlation is not always obvious but not that there is no connection.

Never yet heard a $2,000 system sound as good as a $20,000 system. Have heard a $5,000 system sound better than a $10,000 to my ears - if not the owner. Certainly a lot of variation around a given price point - but there are limits.

[Audio Flynn]

An insightful thread. I remember being

called an audiophile the first time, about 18 months ago, and was quite

surprised because I'm very skeptical of audio magazine reviews and the

black arts of four thousand dollar interconnects. For me all that

matters is recreating the emotions of being at a live concert.

That means making the right compromises. When I heard some of the

Stereophile class A components at RMAF recently, it was obvious to me

that the designers and reviewers hadn't used live music as a reference

because the music sounded quite synthetic.

Certainly what sets audio apart from most other hobbies is the highly

subjective talking-up of products in the language of a restaurant

review and the associated pseudo-science and snake oil

salesmanship.

With audio there's no correlation

between outlay and sound quality. If you take golf, sub-aqua or

sport flying, there are key measurable attributes for any equipment you

buy that translate into better performance, reliability or safety.

Audio

discussion boards tend to have their own "group think" - Audiogon's

dominant belief seens to be "if you want good sound it will cost you"

and expertise is perceived to be related to how much a poster has spent

on their rig. Weird that - in any other area, cycling large

chunks of cash on essentially the same purchase would be viewed as bad

decision making!

Mark's point about discernment is very well made.

If

I was not into this it would be car racing. 1/4 mile is the 1/4 mile;

perhaps evelvation above sea level or temperature may affect a time;

but it is driver, car, and the stop watch.

I would not apaolgize

for anything I am good at. I was a good novice sound man 25 years ago

and it helped my build very good music library, 2 channel and HT

systems.

[mike stehr]

"Are you an apologetic audiophile?"

It's gotta be better than the apologetic meth-head......

""I work on my home and do remodeling. I am far happier to spend $2000 on wood floors and install them myself than pay a contractor to do so. I smile dismissively at my friends who spent $10K on wood floors and know the contactor used poor quality materials.""

I'm a little confused here, Robert.

Okay, I would guess 2 grand would get someone into some good quality hardwood flooring that would cover a reasonable sized area, and say with the polyurethane thrown in. Before install.

Now granted, chop saws and a table saw are easy to come across, along with a air compressor and lines.

But where did you come across the toe nailers, and the rubber mallets to use with the toe nailers? Not to mention the tools needed once it's installed. The edgers and walk behind sander (a item well over 2K), the dust bags, edging disc paper, and sandpaper for the walk-behind sander. From coarse to finer grit required for sanding. Or a good vacuum cleaner to suck up all the dust to get the floor sawdust-free enough to troll out a coat of filler. Then sand all that fill out again with the edgers and walk-behind sander with finer grit paper.

Then vacuum again.

Now you are to the part of finish sanding with the finest grit paper, with orb sanders, and a screen sander. Which looks like a floor buffer with the proper head to use fine mesh screens. They run up to 1K themselves. The mesh screens ain't cheap either. Re-vacuum again. Once everything looks sandmark free and dustfree, you can apply poly.

And it does take some practice to apply that poly in a even coat. Wait 8 hours or so, apply another coat.

Right before the folks move in, you would lightly sand edges and corners with screen material, and use the screen sander with the finest mesh. Vacuum, and put on the final coat of polyurethane.

Did you just happen to borrow all that stuff? Or is it Pergo flooring?

[DrWho]

We put wood floor throughout our entire two story house by ourselves....but paid to have the sanding and finishing done by someone that knew what he was doing. I think the total cost came in somewhere around $5k to $6k, but the majority of that was the wood cost (3/4" White Oak). We didn't cut a single board until we did the hallway and stairs where everything had to be the same width. As far as the specialized tools - specifically the fancy nail guns - we cut a deal with the guy we lined up to finish our floors to take over our tools when we finished. This also meant that we got to use the hardcore tools the professionals use day in and day out. It turned out well because we got our money back and he got a spare set of equipment (which turns out he needed the day after we finished with it). For someone that installs floors in hundreds of houses, one house upfront was by no means a big hit on its life. We took our time laying the floor though. Laying just a few rows a night, I think it took us over a year to finish. []

[maxg]

"All the money in the world in the hands of an idiot will probably not produce a good musical sounding system. A small budget in the hands of a true audiophile (no apology needed) will probably create something very pleasing and listenable."

Help me out here Mark - how does the idiot get all this money in the first place?[]

OK - yes - it is possible - but the high end systems that I have come across have generally been assembled by real audiophiles who knew what they were looking for. The end result may not, ultimately, have been that impressive but certainly more than a match for systems 1/10th of the price - as was in my original example.

I am sure there are billionaire playboys with mega systems that have been badly mismatched and sound like crud - I just never got invited to their houses.....

[gonzp]

Funny thing happened at the Rocky Mountain Audio Festival a few months back. On Saturday morning, 11:00 ish I was waiting to catch the elevator and, I over hear two guys talking about what they had been seeing so far. One guy tells the other I am going to have to go to the Juicy Music room, I hear this guy has got his custom amps hooked up to a f&^$%^g pair of $600.00 Klipsch speakers and this system is awesome. The other guy is totally awestruck and says he too will go check out the Juicy Music room.

Fast forward, Sunday afternoon. I am up visiting with Mark and his Lovely wife and this guy from yesterday at the elevator comes in and, tells Mark that he is from Stereophile magazine (I didnt catch his name) and he has heard quite a bit about the room and the stereo. He sat there and talked to Mark, all the while tapping his feet to the music. I did not hear what he was saying to Mark but, I believe he was saying that it did not require a lot of money to have a very listenable system.

I have been to a few audio shows and I tell you, I think that I would have to spend an awful lot (more) money to get a small gain over what I am listening too.

[mike stehr]

If your eating Top Ramen everyday to save up sheckles for that fancy piece of audio gear or boutique part, you may wanna pull out of it.......

[Audio Flynn]

Funny

thing happened at the Rocky Mountain Audio Festival a few months back.

On Saturday morning, 11:00 ish I was waiting to catch the elevator and,

I over hear two guys talking about what they had been seeing so far. One

guy tells the other I am going to have to go to the Juicy Music room,

I hear this guy has got his custom amps hooked up to a f&^$%^g pair

of $600.00 Klipsch speakers and this system is awesome. The other guy is totally awestruck and says he too will go check out the Juicy Music room.

Fast forward, Sunday afternoon. I

am up visiting with Mark and his Lovely wife and this guy from

yesterday at the elevator comes in and, tells Mark that he is from

Stereophile magazine (I didnt catch his name) and he has heard quite a

bit about the room and the stereo. He sat there and talked to Mark, all the while tapping his feet to the music. I

did not hear what he was saying to Mark but, I believe he was saying

that it did not require a lot of money to have a very listenable

system.

I

have been to a few audio shows and I tell you, I think that I would

have to spend an awful lot (more) money to get a small gain over what I

am listening too.

I

have had the good fortune to listen to some of the same systems with

gonzp on rare ocassion. And he is a darn easy guy to agree with.

[Parrot]

. . . . .

I'm a little confused here, Robert.

. . . . .

Did you just happen to borrow all that stuff? Or is it Pergo flooring?

Awesome post! [][][Y]

[anarchist]

"I work on my home and do remodeling. I am far happier to spend $2000 on wood floors and install them myself than pay a contractor to do so. I smile dismissively at my friends who spent $10K on wood floors and know the contactor used poor quality materials.""

I'm a little confused here, Robert.

Okay, I would guess 2 grand would get someone into some good quality hardwood flooring that would cover a reasonable sized area, and say with the polyurethane thrown in. Before install.

Now granted, chop saws and a table saw are easy to come across, along with a air compressor and lines.

But where did you come across the toe nailers, and the rubber mallets to use with the toe nailers? Not to mention the tools needed once it's installed. The edgers and walk behind sander (a item well over 2K), the dust bags, edging disc paper, and sandpaper for the walk-behind sander. From coarse to finer grit required for sanding. Or a good vacuum cleaner to suck up all the dust to get the floor sawdust-free enough to troll out a coat of filler. Then sand all that fill out again with the edgers and walk-behind sander with finer grit paper.

Then vacuum again.

Now you are to the part of finish sanding with the finest grit paper, with orb sanders, and a screen sander. Which looks like a floor buffer with the proper head to use fine mesh screens. They run up to 1K themselves. The mesh screens ain't cheap either. Re-vacuum again. Once everything looks sandmark free and dustfree, you can apply poly.

And it does take some practice to apply that poly in a even coat. Wait 8 hours or so, apply another coat.

Right before the folks move in, you would lightly sand edges and corners with screen material, and use the screen sander with the finest mesh. Vacuum, and put on the final coat of polyurethane.

Did you just happen to borrow all that stuff? Or is it Pergo flooring?

Sorry for the confusion Mike.

Hardwood floors come in multiple forms - solid hardwood, engineered hardwood, and then Pergo. Solid hardwood and engineered hardwood come in unfinished and prefinished forms. Depending on manufacturer, those floors may require nailing, stapling, glue-down, glue-together, and/or merely floated.

I therefore need to borrow no stuff as I choose prefinished, 5/8 inch engineered floors which are glued together and then floated over the existing floor. (I have all the requisite saws, drills, hammers, etc.) These type of floors are especially suited to installation below grade, in bathrooms and other "wet" areas where solid hardwood is not acceptable.

Those same floors (or in many cases Pergo) are what the local contractors install I referenced. Installation of unfinished floors and the associated labor would place the cost much higher than my aforementioned dollar amount.

Does that help?

[mike stehr]

"Does that help?"

Yup. Thanks for the reply, Robert.

But another question before Max becomes livid for turning his Topic into a hardwood flooring thread.

"I therefore need to borrow no stuff as I choose prefinished, 5/8 inch engineered floors which are glued together and then floated over the existing floor. (I have all the requisite saws, drills, hammers, etc.) These type of floors are especially suited to installation below grade, in bathrooms and other "wet" areas where solid hardwood is not acceptable."

I would suppose this is a higher quality material than the standard Pergo, which is more or less MDF with pictures of wood on them, and will break down quick with water damage.

It must be some sort of composite material to stand up to water damage, like some sort combination of wood and plastic composite?

We used to install hardwood flooring in kitchens and most guest bathrooms. The main baths were most always tile work. Sometimes, if the buckling isn't bad enough, you can sand it down and re-finish. But if they are really buckled, you gotta cut it out with a router and fab in some replacement pieces, or tear it up and re-install.

Then most hardwood floors darken over time, so the replacement pieces will always be lighter. And if it's a stained hardwood floor, good luck matching the stain! I hope there is some left over.......

My experiences are with solid hardwood flooring obviously, and I have no experience with the pre-fabricated engineered floors. I was curious as to what type of materials they use now, and the longetivity of the products.

My favorite hardwood flooring was the knotty red birch, not with too many knots, but the with lots of the marbled effect the red birch has. Maple does the effect, but there isn't as much going on. It really all boils down to preference.

I'm sorry, Max.........

[maxg]

"I'm sorry, Max........."

No worries - learnt a lot about wooden floors here and I did not know a thing before (all solid floors over here)

Who knew there were Pergophiles?

[arfandbark]

I just checked my dictionary and audiophile is not in there..

[maxg]

audiophile

One entry found for audiophile.

Main Entry: au·dio·phile
Pronunciation: 'o-dE-O-"fI(-&)l
Function: noun
: a person who is enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction

From the Merriam Webster on-line dictionary http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/audiophile

[arfandbark]

I'm sorry Max. I was looking at my Websters unabridged hardcopy dated 1966.

[arfandbark]

I'm an audiophile Max.

It's a "diverse" group we have here.

My system.... ADCOM GTP-400 pre amp tuner,Crown PS400 power amp, Nakamichi CDC 200 player.

And 1976 vintage Cornwalls.

It's not the money, it's the sound.