Harman Kardon Volume

[latlifeMike]

Hello Everyone,

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I have an older model Harman Kardon AVR 10. This is a 30 watt per channel high current amp. Regarding volume, a setting of about 1/3 of full volume would be all that was needed when playing a music CD, and that would be loud. Any increase after that would just plain be too loud. A setting of ½ of total volume would drive you out of the room.

So, with that in mind, I expected my brand new Harman Kardon AVR 245 to be even more robust. However, it doesn't seem to behave like a 65 x 2 / 50 x 7 amp. The volume specs range from -80db (silent, no volume) to 0db (what the manual calls 'max volume') with the capability to go to +10db, which I assume would be insanely loud.

When I increase the volume to even one half of total, my wife and I can carry on a normal conversation if we raise our voice some. It is certainly not like my older AVR 10 which is just 30 watts.

And, to get any respectable increase in volume, I have to turn the nob ... and turn and turn ...

Any thoughts?

[Jeff Matthews]

As long as it gets up there.....

[latlifeMike]

A more scientific and intelligent response would be helpful.

[oldenough]

Like Jeff said, as long as it gets there.

[latlifeMike]

You guys need to get out of the NERD box. I was under the impression that the technical forums were designed for technical answers. "As long as it gets up there" is an answer I would expect from a 12 year old. Oh well, that's OK. I'm sure there is someone else who can help.

[justin_tx_16]

Here are my personal observations.

I have had a new Harman Kardon receiver and a new Sony receiver that were 60 watt and 100 watt per channel. They could get the speakers pretty loud, eventually.

I have a HK 430 which has total of I believe 30 watts, I can't get halfway without a noise violation, and Columbia has a pretty lenient policy.

There is a difference in watt quality and watt quantity. Look for instance at the all of the people who run to 10 or 20 watt tube amps. These are weak amps in measure of actual power but they put out the same volume often with better quality sound.

Not being an engineer, I cannot really explain what is happening with your amps, but I can at least relate, and pass on this article written by another forum member which I put on my old site. It's pretty informative on spec ratings and might be of interest to you. http://www.soundwise.org/gethelp/specratings.htm

[oldenough]

I was under the impression from the post that it was not a lack of output, but just a matter of having to turn the volume control more to attain the same output.Sorry for the lack understanding on my part, i will stay away from the tech forum until i can rid myself of this" NERD box" that is stuck on my head.

[LarryC]

This is only partly within my pay grade, but I think you're confusing power output capability with the volume control's taper -- how fast the sound level changes as you crank the VC through each portion of its rotation. The specs are most likely accurate, but some controls raise the output level quickly in the first few degrees of rotation and slow it down a lot after that, while others make you rotate it a lot before the volume finally comes through. Some manufacturers may design a quick increase in order to make you think the power is greater. What seems to be common is that a lot of the available gain is in the last one-3rd or one-quarter of the rotation, so that full power IS available at the top of its run, and you can get there if you really want to. That's probably what the others meant by "as long as it gets there."

there may also be differences in the way gain is handled between sections of the receiver, i.e., the CD section and/or the line stage may have higher and/or lower gain respectively, and that may cause the VC which sits in the middle to do different things in different designs. Also, VCs often have a rotation range in which they sound best, and that may affect how they are designed. Someone much more versed in design may want to chime in here.

I wouldn't worry about where the VC ends up.

Larry

[justin_tx_16]

Another idea, linear vs logarithmic volume controls. The HK is linear (my old one) and newer amps are logarithmic.

X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X

VS

X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X
X X
X

As you can see, ASCII art is not my specialty.

[mark1101]

My Denon HT receiver works exactly the same way. From 6:00 to around 1:00 is a very slow but progressive increase in volume, and at around 1:00 and afterward just a tiny turn more will really increase it substantially....like a sudden acceleration.

I actually like this type of operation quite a lot. It gives you a really precise control over the low and mid volumes and avoids sudden accidents with the volume control that could blow a speaker. It's calibrated just about perfectly for how I use it too. I'm within the "slow" range almost all the time.

It does seem a bit odd at first that you need to give it quite a twist to get the volume out. But it makes good sense to me and really works well.

[JetJockey]

Same here, I have an HK 125 and a Yamaha RX-V2500...all the new receivers seem to work this way, both these receivers don't start to pump it out till at least -30db but sound good at -20 and below, enjoy! That HK is a fine receiver.

[3dzapper]

"The volume specs range from -80db (silent, no volume) to 0db (what the manual calls 'max volume') with the capability to go to +10db, which I assume would be insanely loud."

If the volume scale is true logrithmic, each 10 Db of power increase read on the display represents a doubling of power and will result in a 3 Db increase in volume from the speakers. Thus if 0 Db on the display represents 65 watts, -40 would be 4 watts. With 90 Db @ 1 Watt efficient speakers, this is 96 Db at 3 feet from each speaker and approximately the same level when two speakers, room and distance are factored. While 96 Db is loud, it is not so loud as to prevent conversation.

As others have noted, older volume control tapers added most of the available power in the first half of rotation. The position of the knob itself was not the determinate factor.

Hope this simple explaination helps.

Rick

[latlifeMike]

Thanks all for your input. These explanations make perfect sense. Now re-thinking the issue in light of your responses, I can see the benefit of a different VC logarithm / design.

NOTE: By the way, I am very impressed with how clean this unit sounds. I'm hearing instruments and dynamics that I didn't hear using the old AVR10. Can't wait to get my RF 82s.

Thanks!

[JohnA]

You guys need to get out of the NERD
box. I was under the impression that the technical forums were
designed for technical answers. "As long as it gets up there" is
an answer I would expect from a 12 year old. Oh well, that's
OK. I'm sure there is someone else who can help.

Actually,
YOU are the one that needs to get out of the nerd box. The answer
was correct and accurate. The volume settings are relative with a
myriad of variables that makes the knob position irrelevant.
Twist it until the volume until it gets there. Quit when you hear
distirtion. It is just that stupid simple.

[Jeff Matthews]

No disrespect was meant by my comment stating "as long as it gets there." I thought it might be obvious the thing was designed that way. I have seen some like this from time to time, and it really is annoying to spin that dial three turns and go from flea volume to mouse volume.

[Jeff Matthews]

All right, John, that'll be two demerits!!!!!

The guy asked an honest question. I'll be big and admit I knew he might be looking for more of an answer than I gave.

[Coytee]

I'm within the "slow" range almost all the time.

Wimp []

[mark1101]

By the volume knob setting I may seem like a wimp, but I forgot to mention that I have 3 Lascalas, 2 heresys, and 2 subs attached to the Denon HT receiver. Plenty of noise in the "slow" range.

By the way Richard, I started using ear plugs when leaf blowing over the x-mas holiday (yes, down here the leaves have finally fallen). Public admission of being a wimp probably, right? [][]

[popbumper]

Using ear plugs while running a leaf blower typically indicates that the leaf blower in question has a lesser "sound quality" than another manufacturers model might have. Which were you using? Ryobi's, as an example, have a sound that "blooms" above 105dB, and is quite pleasant. I would suggest for your own listening tastes, you try another brand. You may not find the ear plugs necessary [8-|]

Chris

[Arky]

I believe there is a mod for that design. Contact Craig, Dean or Bob.

JT