DecWare Amps

[Gregorius]

Greetings Gentlemen,

Has anyone here in this Forum heard or had any experience with DecWare tube amps? I am mostly concerned with sound and build quality, reliability.

Any input would be useful.

Thanks,

Gregorius

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HK AVR II

Toshiba DVD

32" Toshiba TV

1976 LaScala's Front L&R

KV-1 Center

KG 1.5 Rear L&R

KSW-12 Sub

[Marvel]

Do a search on these forums for Decware Zen amps and you should turn up something. They have been mentioned a bit here and there. As I recall, most thought they were nice, but still too low powered, except for use on the horns with moderate listening levels.

Marvel

[ChrisK]

I am using a Decware SE84C to drive my (wall mounted for HT) Klipsch KG2.5's while I finish restoring a pair of 70's vintage Cornwalls. The signal is going through my Marantz SR7000 receiver set on "CD Direct". The sound is amazingly better than was the receiver's alone. I only tried the Cornwalls with the amp for a few minutes before taking them apart . They sounded great. I'll probably get another SE84C sometime later to "pump it up a bit". There is one for sale on ebay now. the link is: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1304171141

Sometimes you can get a used/demo one from Decware for $350-400 that someone has traded in for an upgrade.

Good Luck,

Chris

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HT

Klipsch KG2.5 (front & rear)

Klipsch KV2 (center)

Klipsch SW12 (sub)

Marantz SR700 receiver

Toshiba DTS DVD

JVC SVHS VCR

Sony Hi8 VCR

2 channel

Klipsch Cornwalls (1976)

Decware Zen SE84C amp

Arcam Alpha MCD cd player

[Mike Lindsey]

Chris,

That Cornwall is beautiful! It must be the designer series as it doesn't have a grille attached to it. May I ask what finish that is?

Mike

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My Music Systems

[ChrisK]

They are raw birch plywood treated with linseed oil and paste wax. The overall finish is not quite as good as the picture looks, but still very nice. I'd give them an 9.0-9.5 out of 10 overall. The tops have some water stains on them. I'm looking for a method to fix or mitigate that. If anyone has any suggestions, please don't hesitate, or it's off to the professional woodworkers I go.... OBTW, the woofer centers were redone some years ago, but I think the metallic centers look great.

Chris

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HT

Klipsch KG2.5 (front & rear)

Klipsch KV2 (center)

Klipsch SW12 (sub)

Marantz SR700 receiver

Toshiba DTS DVD

JVC SVHS VCR

Sony Hi8 VCR

2 channel

Klipsch Cornwalls (1976)

Decware Zen SE84C amp

Arcam Alpha MCD cd player

[edster00]

Gregorious,

I had a pair of the Decware Signature SV83M for a month driving my K-horns. The build quality is very good and they sound terrific. I finally sent them back because they just did't go loud enough without "pooping out" in my listening room.

My "listening room" is probably the problem. It is an area ~15'X20"x8' but it in an unfinished basement with no solid walls on 2 sides. The the actual room size is probably at least twice as big. I have an idea that if my listening room had 4 walls my resutls may have been different.

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Ed W

This message has been edited by edster00 on 12-05-2001 at 09:29 AM

[Gregorius]

Thanks All,

I was afraid that there was not enough power with SET amps. I like all kinds of music but I occasionally like to rock. Right now my limit is $1,000 (WAF) I know, but she did let me have a set of LaScala's :~) I'm afraid that any tube amp that has enough power will be out of my price range (I have never had tubes). Has anyone had any experience with the Odyssey Stratos? they are getting good reviews and it would fit into the budget.

Thanks,

Gregorius

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HK AVR II

Toshiba DVD

32" Toshiba TV

1976 LaScala's Front L&R

KV-1 Center

KG 1.5 Rear L&R

KSW-12 Sub

[mobile homeless]

I used to be very interested in the Decware Zen amps and have been familiar with them from the SE-84A version till the now more current, SE-84C. In stereo Zens, Steve Deckert now has the Select version which has a better rectifier tube, a few better parts inlcuding coupling caps and binding posts, additional inputs that do away with the hookup wire, and the most noticable difference (sight wise), the powder black chassis.

Let me make this point clear; I have never actually heard the Zen amps in any of the configurations, but have followed them and talked to others that have had Zens who also have heard other SETS.

First of all, the little Zen does not actually use a true Directly Heated Triode (DHT) tube. It is a regular pentode EL-84 derivative from Svetlana called the SV83 that is just wired in triode. One good thing is the tube is very inexpensive. You can also use the EL-84 as well. But it is NOT a true triode tube.

You ought to know that Steve Deckert is VERY good at marketing, and I dont always believe all his claims online. There is literally NO WAY the Zen amp is anywhere NEAR 5 watts! Most people actually estimate the Zens to put out under 2 watts. When dealing with low powered SETs, every little watt matters and when you get below the 3 watt range, you are really limiting yourself to proper dynamics with anything but extremely efficient speakers such as the Klipschorn. The bass on the little Zens will not be pluming the depths anytime soon and moving past small scale music will be a bit tough in medium to large listening rooms.

IT is my personal opinion that a good 2A3 or 300B amp would be a far better sonic picture then ye olde Zen. The main Zen advantage will be the price, and in that way, the little Zen does indeed win out. Although if you have any soldering skills, the Bottlehead 2A3 Paramours would probably offer better sound along with some labor. You can find these used, however.

People that I know that have compared excellent 2A3 amps to the Zen say that although the Zen is a neat little beast, it does not hold up with the DHT designs that employ better parts, a TRUE directly heated triode tube, and output transformers with better performance. One Zen owner supposedly sold his Wright Sound WPA3.5 Monoblocks in favor of a Zen but almost every other owner I have talked to that has heard something of the Wright 3.5 nature has preferred it to the Zen. In power alone, the simple 2A3 amp with come in around 3-3.5 watts, and with good transformers, get to 20hz on the low end vs around 25-30hz for the Zen.

I will tell you that my Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondogs were auditioned last weekend by a current owner of a Bryston 4B-ST, a solid state 250wpc brute that has amazing low end. I have always felt this was one of the better solid state amp deals. After listening to a few tracks from Mogwai, Boards of Canada, and ISAN via my Cornwall 1 with Alnico, he turned to me and exclaimed, "I can't believe it..but those 2A3 Moondogs have more slam and impact than my Bryston 4B-ST...at least with the Cornwalls!" It was true, the bass was actually more tuneful and tonally accurate, while at the same time, delivering amazing slam and percusive detail. This with the Sovtek 2A3 tube which can be found for only $45 or so a pair (of course, I will admit that even though the Sovtek 2A3 is an amazing bargain and excellent performer, it does not have the musicality and subtle detail with black background of the NOS RCA JAN CRC VT95 Black Plate).

So I would think some serious thoughts about your speaker choice and music selection. Most of the glowing reviews on the Decware site are from people with little to no previous tube amp exposure and almost ZERO other SET exposure.

Steve does offer a full 30 day money back clause which is a great thing for finding out if you DO have the right system and tastes for the little Zen. It does have a lot of admirers but I see many upgrading to bigger and better things not too far down the line.

As for reliability, the Zen is not very complex and I have not heard bad things about their reliability. Regardless, Steve Deckert seems to be a very honest man in this way and I would imagine if you have problems, they would be corrected.

So be sure to take a look around at other offerings and opinions in and around the SET camp.

kh

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s y s t e m

Linn LP-12/Linn Basic Plus/Sumiko Blue Point

Rega Planet

Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified

Creek OBH-12 Passive Preamp

Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks

DIYCable Wire - Various

1977 Klipsch Cornwall I

Alternate Components:

EICO HF-81 - btw, perfect Cornwall match

ASUSA A-4 EL-34 UL

ProAc Mini-Towers

EICO HFT-90 Tube FM Tuner

Sumo Aurora Tuner

Nakamichi CR-7af>s>

[Colin]

With the ultra-efficiency of the big old LaScala horns, I believe that you can do better, and get more out of your magnificent speakers, than even the deliciously lush euphonies of the Dec or possibly even the classic Dynaco.

The usual conservative estimate is that a speaker of 96dB/w/m sensitivity is needed for full enjoyment of the Paramour, Afterglow or Paraglow or other 2A3 amplifier. Your fantastically efficient speakers are one of the few models that can truly take advantage of the delicacy of the 2A3 tube.

The rule of thumb with SET amps seems to be larger amps do not usually sound as good in terms of micro-dynamics, detail, and tonal accuracy. The best sounding (not the most powerful) amps use the smaller tubes. On extremely efficient speakers, like big old horns, even a few watts should provide enough power for most of the frequency spectrum, except the mid and deep bass.

Whether you elect the flea powered 2A3 tube or not, you will still need solid state powered sub-woofer (and a good one) to fill in the bottom end of music and movies.

I would seriously consider 2A3, possibly even 45, tube amps from Bottlehead, Wright Sound, Wellbourne Labs and Don Garber. The combination will put you into an audiphile league of which many of us can only dream. The LaScala are suberb horns worthy of a serious investment in quality amplification.

Bottlehead amps are simple to make kits. See my review of their custom Paramour at:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_2/paramour-tube-amplifier-4-2001.html

The Don Grabber's Fi X is a good 2A3 amp for less than a grand. Don Garber knows 2A3's. No web site, call 718-625-7353

George Wright is very highly regarded. His amps will be more expensive than the Bottlehead ones. They are at: http://www.wright-sound.com/

The Wellbourne Moondog amps appear to be even better, with some great reviews from listeners. See http://12.16.160.65/moondogs/ for Kelly's great home page and go to http://www.welbornelabs.com/

By the way, the complete Positive Feedback article Kelly refers to (volume 8, number four) is an excellent comparison of the Wright and Wellbourne 2A3 amps.

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Cornwalls & Klipsch subs; leather couch & feet up; lights out & tubes glowing!

This message has been edited by Colin on 12-05-2001 at 11:13 AM

[mobile homeless]

Just saw your reply that was produced while I was writing mine.

Want to hear a GREAT tube amp that is CHEAP as hell? I have had my fair share of tube amps come and go, but I STILL believe that my trusty EICO HF-81 amp is perhaps one of the all-time best amps I have ever owned, this from a vintage piece made around 1960! It drop kicked the Jolida 302B and ASUSA A-4, two very respectable EL-34 amps nearing the $1000 range. In fact, I have not heard an amp under $1000 better the little 14wpc, EL-84 EICO HF-81. It simply had THAT much magic.

These amps come up on eBay frequently and while it is hard to get the bargains of old, they are still dirt cheap. You routinely see them hoving around the $175 area give or take depending on condition. And this little integrated amp is a match made in HEAVEN with Klipsch, at least with my 77 Cornwall I. This partnership has a soul and substance that I find completely addictive. And this amp can ROCK when it wants to...I had a friend visit after a cross country drive in search of rare and hard to find vinyl... He walked in with his 250 albums and we had a drunken field day with the Linn - EICO - Cornwall combo!

Yes, they are old pieces and sometimes need some cap replacement. But this is pretty easy... and you can find GREAT ones around.

I know one thing...I will NEVER get rid of my original EICO HF-81; indeed, I now actually have two! The output transformers and circuit on these beasts are top notch.

kh

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 12-06-2001 at 09:59 AM

[Randy Bey]

I owned a Decware Zen (for 29 days).

I had QA issues in that the first one arrived DOA. It was missing a wood block that Decware puts in the chassis to hold a transformer in place -- an indication of a quality construction job, that.

I have heard that it burns out the output tubes about every six months as Steve drives the poor little thing very hard.

I would agree that the power is WAY overrated at 5 watts, and if he is willing to lie about that, then he is willing to lie about anything. I would put the output at around 1.5 watts, myself. My Klipschorns clipped playing Red Hot Chili Peppers at nomimal volumes (at volumes you could sit in chairs several feet apart and converse without raising your voice).

If you really get off on 'little-girl-with-acoustic-guitar' music, and you have really efficient speakers, then you might get away with a Zen.

For not much more money you can have a real amp though. Check out Doc Bottlehead http://www.bottlehead.com

[mobile homeless]

Ole Randy...

Randy has always been a bit sour after having to send that ole Zen back! And if he couldnt wring some serious sound from that little amp with his 104dB Klipschorns, then you must give pause. I hadnt heard too many quality complaints but the ones Randy mentions are a bit troubling.

As for Colin's SET list, that is definitely a great start with most of the heavy hitters included. I have to say the Wright Sound WPA3.5 Mono is a great little amp and can be found for around $1000 used if you keep your eye out on AudiogoN. I have compared these amps with my Moondogs and while they dont have the low end slam and articulation in the bass, they do have a very magical midrange. Ulitmately, I preferred my Moondogs for their better extension, parts, and blacker background... But I would not be weeping if made to take the Wright 3.5. It is WELL worth the price used and an easy upgrade candidate as well. It is an extremely musical amp and makes a great match with the Cornwall.

Here are two EXTREMELY clear and detailed shots of the Wright Sound WPA3.5 I took last weekend - they are 1000 pixel shots with excellent resolution:

Wright Sound WPA3.5 Exterior:

http://www.progressive-engineering.com/i-vol/images/wright1_full_1000.jpg

Wright Sound WPA3.5 Interior Wiring

http://www.progressive-engineering.com/i-vol/images/wright_interior_1200.jpg

Colin, I have to really disagree here concerning the need for a subwoofer, especially with an amp of the Moondog's stature. With the Cornwalls in the corners of my room, I am getting bass in the mid 30hz range with amazing articulation and clarity, with all the slam you would want. I have heard NO subwoofer that can keep up properly with the speed of a good speaker, especially something like a Cornwall. He might need one with his La Scalas but with the Cornwalls and a SET with top notch output transformers, the bass can be intense. See comments above from the Bryston 4B-ST owner (who also happens to own the Wrights pictured).

The Bottlehead Paramours are great deals for the money... but their MagneQuest transformers and PS parts do not bring about the low end impact of their bigger brothers (either the parafeed MQ or the Air-Gapped MQ DS-025). The Wright's actually use the MQ TFA-204 transformer which is a nice piece but does not quite have the low end extension of the bigger DS-025.

kh

[sprocket]

Hi Gregorius

I find my Decware se84cs shines nicely with the cormwall I's ('84) I've been using since the mid summer. The Decware amp however will not power my B&W 805's. Perhaps I don't listen to music as loudly as you do Randy. Having said that I must report that I have needed to turn down the volume from my normal listening levels to have a conversation. I also report that at other times I have wished for a squeak more volume. Some material just must rock. Also I'm more likely to listen to sergeant pepper than chilly pepper but I like them both. Jazz and classical, a fair amount of rock (not too hard) and an occasional little girl with a guitar round out my listening.

It's unfortunate Steve D used 5 watts to discribe power output. He has been rightfully been beaten up badly on the Audio Asylum BB for that statement. I think he has pointed out he didn't mean 5 watts "RMS". Power ratings can be measured many ways. Someone may have tested the little amp and recorded 1.8 watts rms BTY. But let's get past this point. All will agree the decware amp is flea power at best. Correct me if you like Randy, I do not want to put words in your mouth but even you have reported the amp sounds sweet or some other possitive sounding discription. It just wouldn't go loud enough.

On this other point I agree. Gregorius just must look at the Bottlehead gear or some other 2A3 based amp. I know I have. I've heard the Paramour several times but mostly with Bottlehead straight 8 speakers. I'm mot sure about the speakers but that amps are yummy. Many users offer easy upgrade tip on Bottlehead's BB.

Thanks for listening..

[Conductor]

Gregorius, I have visited Mr. Deckert's listening roon/office and heard the Zen amp driving his radial speakers. The soundstage was awesome. This was at low level; polite, nighttime, baby's sleeping, got a hangover, level. If that's what you want then I could recommend them just because of the price if nothing else. I also heard them through his weird looking, homemade fullrange driver in a corner horn with add on tweeters speakers. I was underwhelmed. BTW, three of the responders to this post (the homeless guy, Colin, and Bey) often hang out at the Audio Asylum where they try to pass themselves as audiophiles and stir up a lot of s***. Especially the homeless character. In reality they are just horny tube types who write well and prolifically. They can be entertaining at times and usually know what they are talking about. I use to think they were the same guy.

[Mike Lindsey]

Oh boy... I think the Conductor is bringing this thread up to a crescendo.

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My Music Systems

[mobile homeless]

Lovely.

So I am now the same as ole Randy and Colin? heh.... christ. Our styles of writing are about as similar as bearded goat cheese to a cassaba melon. At this stage, I am not sure who is the melon.

Calling me an "audiophile" is a bit of a minor insult however as most so-called audiophiles wouldnt know music if it visited them for wine and cheese, or even a fine ale. The average audiophile is more into the system than the music with the hobby aspect overtaking the art. Frankly, if you just buy audiodreck recordings to hear how will your system "images" than you are farther from the essence of enjoying the music than with a pair of Cerwin Vegas powered by a Circuit City 200 watt Japanamarvel.

So you are the same Conductor who just asked the Wright Sound question. Hmmm.... That was quite a lively thread over in the SET Asylum. Even ole George Wright made an appearance himself, this for the very first time to make a defacto recall of some of his amps due to that picture I posted and some questions regarding hum and the PS wiring. At least he stands behind his product 100%...with a little prodding.

When are you going to break down and get an amp, conductor? Have you been conducting this long with nothing much to propell your conductor's stick?

What did you decide?

kh

[Conductor]

Mr.Homeless, I did get an amp. I found a mint Conrad Johnson CAV50. Just waiting for Fedex to bounce it to me. I almost ordered the Wrights, but I was scared to death that they wouldn't crack plaster without clipping. Besides, after seeing your close-up innards pics (reminded me of Hustler magazine), I could see they were wired wrong and full of cheap parts (just kidding.. Insert appropriate emoticon here). I refer, of course, to the AA thread that you mentioned. I kept waiting for Mr.Wright to weigh in and defend his deformed little children, which he did. I'd bet someone emailed him and he was horrified when he read the thread. I still might try the Wrights someday. Hell, I might be like Jack G and just try 'em all.

I'm off to listen to Van Morrison's TB Sheets. Its the worst sounding cd ever, but the music is wonderful.

[mobile homeless]

You should write more often; I like your style.

I did realize a bit late that you found the CAV50 - see other post in this God Fearing Forum. I am sure will be happy with it, although I think you have to hear the SET difference at some point, especially since you have the perfect speakers for it. 3.5 watts would make them get up and do your taxes. Van Morrison would even be impressed, although not before burning himself touching the "cool glowing orbs."

Wait a minute... IS Van Morrison even alive still? I had this strange vision that he died recently; or was that just his music? Oh well, I do believe he is still breathing, for whatever that's worth. I might just go throw on some Van Morrison on vinyl just to get into the mood of this thread.

kh

ps-You do realize that is literally the first time Mr. Wright has ever visited any of the forums? The poor bastard was probably ready to gnaw his own leg off after reading that thread. Welcome to land of the amateur DIY fiend.... he knows just enough to make it all perfectly wrong.

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 12-05-2001 at 06:37 PM

[Conductor]

Hell yes, he's alive. Lay off the mushrooms and the visions will stop. He's 56 y/o and eccentric as ever. He released an album of skiffle music just last year. Cool! Lets hear it from the skiffle fans in the house! If you're pullin' Van da Man vinyl, I recommend "Van Morrison His Band And The Street Choir"

If you don't have it, and there are any all night record stores near you, do yourself a big favor.

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If God had not wanted us to eat animals, then why did he make em taste like meat?

[Randy Bey]

Hey now

Back to the Decware. The sound.

Yup. It's there. The SECOND I plugged it in, I spun up some Albert King and was amazed at the soundstage.

To say it was three dimensional is to do it a disservice. Everything I played sounded fleshed out and all so real. Roy Orbison was right there standing next to the table.

It is safe to say that up until that point my stereo never sounded better. What that amp did for me more than anything else was whet my appetite for tubes.

I sweated and scraped until I had more money. Then I saw a pair of Laurel II's on Audiogon and while I simply didn't have enough money I begged and cajoled my wife until she relented for me to put the diff on plastic.

I have never looked back.

Oh, and I am honored to be compared to MH and Colin. Any classification that lumps us together must be a good one.