Are we foolin' ourselves...

[SilverSport]

Don'cha just love perspective...and I thought middle of the road was about $300 or so...so they don't start getting good until well over the $1000 mark???...well I guess I should stick with the throw-a-way Toshiba...

Bill

Me too, over $1000 for a cdp is not going to happen here, not with my half dead ears !

Not here either...[]

Bill

[rcarlton]

Yep...I think we are foolin' ourselves when it comes to CD players. Way back when I got my Cambridge Audio 640C v. 1, I compared it to a Denon DVD-2200. I could hear no significant difference. I have also had the opportunity to listen to a McIntosh MCD201. Wasn't any better than the Cambridge or Denon. In fact, it couldn't properly play a CD-R (would not play the last two tracks) that the other two players had no problem with.

Now there was a difference in the second generation Toshiba DVD player I had. Sounded OK, not as good as the Cambridge or Denon. Evidence that the technology had improved in the 6 years between the models.

[Cut-Throat]

Yes, I agree!

I once had a $2000 Tube DAC that was highly reviewed and Acclaimed. I plugged it into my Cheapie Marantz CD-67SE that I bought off A-Gon for $175. I had the Digital out fed into the DAC and the CD outputs fed Directly into the Pre-amp. I could flick a switch between the DAC and the Marantz and instantly could compare the two. I know I could not pick either one out in a Blind test. I immediately sold the DAC for $1,000 - Yes, I lost money, but not as much as if I would have kept it!

The Marantz is still in my Upstairs System and I bought a used Jolida Tube CD Player for my Main System. I would not even look at a CD player over $500 anymore.

[skonopa]

Don'cha just love perspective...and I thought middle of the road was about $300 or so...so they don't start getting good until well over the $1000 mark???...well I guess I should stick with the throw-a-way Toshiba...

Bill

Yeah, tell me about it! I guess I'll be sticking with this $350 Denon DCM-380 that I currently have in my setup. Hell, it sounds plenty good enough for me. I don't think I am prepared to spend $1000+ for a CD player.

[pauln]

I saw something on the web the other night that mentioned source frequency reponse:

Records 30Hz to 50KHz CDs 20Hz to 12KHz !!!!

Anyone ever see anything like that or know what this is about? I have always thought CDs went up to 22KHz..

[SilverSport]

I cannot understand those that say there is a HUGE difference between say the Toshiba and another moderatly priced CD player and those that say they sound the same...some claim they wasted their money ($40 give or take) and others think it is a blazing deal...build quality...sure but soundwise???

Bill

[edwinr]

"Some of the really good integrated digital sources available at the moment include offerings from Mark Levinson, CEC, Naim and Ayre"

=============

Edwin,

Off the top of your head, what kind of money are you talking about there?

For around $US2900 you can buy the Ayre CX-7e CD player brand new - I just bought this player. The latest version of the N0. 39 CD player from Mark Levinson retails for around $US6900 but you could pick up a used one - say 5 or 6 years old for less than half that. The CEC TL-51XZ Belt Drive CD player is a bargain at around $US1600 brand new. The CEC offers 95% of the performance of the others without the huge price tag. Is the extra 5% worth the additional dollars? That's a difficult question to answer. If your system is of sufficent quality then maybe the extra dollars are well spent. I carefully considered buying the new Mark Levinson as an upgrade on my CEC. But the Ayre offered very simlilar resolution for much less money. And the Mark Levinson features a built in digital preamp. I didn't need this facility - so the Ayre won out.

I guess like everything in life, it's all about balance. I wouldn't squander huge dollars on a source for a mid-fi system if the system itself couldn't resolve the additonal resolution offered by a better quality source. But a decent mid-fi system still deserves a decent source. I reckon a system based around La Scala speakers deserves a source at least of the quality of the CEC. Scoff some might, but the La Scalas have the ability to resolve very fine detail and they can throw up a soundstage that makes most other speakers in the price range run for cover - but that's only if they are fed a high quality musical signal.

Anyhow, I'm not suggesting that everyone can afford $1600 on a CD player, not saying the $3000 I just spent. But there are some VERY good digital sources available for not that much money. As I mentioned earlier the Rotel RCD 1072 is a start for around $700 new. I like some of the Creek CD players as well - they sound very musical...

[oldbuckster]

I can not justify spending $1000. or more for a CD player....................I bought a Sony ES single play unit many years ago, still use, and really like it, didn't buy the cheapest, nor the most expensive, a good middle ground for me. Very happy with it, it's good enough for these OLD EARS that don't hear as well as they use to....................It's whatever the BUYER wants, or can afford to spend..........each case is different...........but where does it stop, what price are you willing to pay????????????????

[pauln]

OB, you're still a high roller compared to us that choose not to spend anything on digital.

[oldbuckster]

OB, you're still a high roller compared to us that choose not to spend anything on digital.

The punch line being..................Your a Vinyl Guy !!!!!!!......When the dust settles, you guys will come around...it took me a long time to give in to CD's, probably the last of my friends to go to CD's, but not the least bit sorry, many reasons why..................I find with this AUDIO hobby you can spend more money than you ever thought you'd spend on re-production of Music...........................Bottomless Pit....if you will..........................

[oldbuckster]

OB, you're still a high roller compared to us that choose not to spend anything on digital.

Double post again..................I also like DVD's..............Concert DVD's...........

[anarchist]

The reality is you can buy a $20 cd-rom drive for your computer and a good sound card and be done. For digital, in a few years, we will all be using HTPC's. There simply isn't a good reason for separate DVD or CD Players (yes, I know, you want an "analog sounding" digital player.) I can't wait to see how manufacturers attempt to differentiate their products then and convince people to spend thousands more for "dedicated" devices.

Silversport, if you "think" you are missing anything, you can make a few minor changes to your 3950 which will quickly allow you to surpass your C.A. and play on the same field as those multi-thousand dollar CD players.

Swenson mods

Vinni mods

[maxg]

I dont think we are fooling ourselves - but I kinda have my own suspicions as to the whys and wherefores of that.

I think everyone - just about recognises that there are differences in how DAC's perform. Some simply seem to do a better job of the conversion than others. The one bit DAC that came on the 5 disk AIWA changer I still have is frankly poor in comparison to the Marantz CD6000. At least I think it is - maybe the transport for all I know - but suffice to say the Marantz sounds a lot better - and that is hardly the pinacle of CD players.

My old original Sony CD player from 1984 played better than the AIWA too - but not as well as the Denon 3000 DVD player that in turn is bested by the aforementioned Marantz.

Anyway - I mentioned above my own suspicions as to reasons for differences so I will mention them here. Please note - I have no scientific evidence for this - just thoughts and ideas:

As follows:

If we take 2 transport mechanisms - one a nice solid well put together unit and the other a cheapie unit with a distinct wobble to the Cd tray and generally poor construction. They may well use the same laser - and much the same error correction, but, I would expect that error correction to have to cut in more on the cheap unit than on the expensive one.

If we consider for a moment what is actually being read by the laser it is, of course, not ones and zeros at all - but pits cut into the surface of the aluminium. These are interpreted as ones and zeros. It stands to reason, therefore, that a "wobblier" transport will call upon the error correction more often than the solidly built unit (assuming the CD to be correctly aligned in each case).

The simple theory is - the less the error correction cuts in - the better the playback. Might be totally off-base - just a theory. Error correction might be totally undetectable to the ear for all I know - or it might cause deterioration (Jitter perhaps - never understood what causes that beyond it being timing errors). Maybe it causes some other form of deterioration. If anyone else has any thoughts on this one I would welcome them.

For what it is worth the best of breed CD player over here right now is reckoned to be an Esoteric unit. I think it is about $20,000. Built like a tank - sounded good to me - still prefer vinyl though.

[meagain]

The reality is you can buy a $20 cd-rom drive for your computer and a good sound card and be done. For digital, in a few years, we will all be using HTPC's. There simply isn't a good reason for separate DVD or CD Players (yes, I know, you want an "analog sounding" digital player.) I can't wait to see how manufacturers attempt to differentiate their products then and convince people to spend thousands more for "dedicated" devices.

You got it. And what I'm waiting for will be available REAL soon (format change, etc). Just this past weekend, we tested CD vs. it's iTunes lossless twin and despite me thinking the iTunes through another DAC sounded a tad better - we're labeling it a wash. (I admit here to currently thinking my CDP's or preamp's tubes might suck so it might not be a fair test).....

But I want: A killer TV computer with great guts which will wirelessly talk to all other computers/laptops in the house allowing both communication & tapping into their storage. Eliminate completely the DVD & CD players. No need for them as they won't bring anything to the table except inconvenience. We have this now but need to ramp it up many notches. Waiting for the new stuff to become available and/or other bits to lower in price.

I wanted to start a thread on DACs. Yep, I'm going to... or pull up one I remember that Tigerwood started. But I can't see spending big money on a CDP or a DVD player right now.

[TRiv]

The other issue is that CD software might not warrant much of an expense to play it back. Unlike analog, there is a FINITE limit to what can be extracted from a CD. When you hit the limit, you hit the limit period. The CD as a distribution technique has merged with another phenomena - which is the production of "music product." did you ever see the label on artificial cheese? It is usually described as 'Cheese Food." meaning cheese-like food. The modern CD is the same thing. Music has been replaced by Music Product - a thing which sounds a bit like music, but in fact is nothing more or less than an elaborate assemblage of sounds put together with ProTools and pressed into a disc. You don't get any sense of real space, for instance, because there was no real space involved. You don't get the sense of singers intereacting with a band, because that never happened either. You have a collection of tracks - who knows how and where they were collected - merged into two arbitrary "channels" to create an arbitrary thing called "stereo." These new platters play EXCITING sound pressure waves - that is for certain. These waves can be played loud as hell and they sound clean - clean as a whistle. But sadly, not musical. Just sterile sound pressure waves with no musical event behind them.

The market has spoken. They want their "music products" on computers, portables, car radios and other lo-fi medium - not on archaic room-based audio systems. The recording industry has listened, and is all too willing to oblige this demand with as much music product as can possibly be pumped out - as fast as the software engineers can merge the tracks. Listening to music is now a background activity and task you do while driving, jogging, talking on the cell phone, lifting weights, or "working." Life is one gargantuan soundtrack. Listening "actively" as "hifi nuts" did in the golden age of HiFi - is as gone as whitewalled tires. Oh sure, a few nuts with Klipschorns still remain, but no one is making CDs for you.

CDs sound spectacular and unreal. It's the unreal part that keeps me playing scratchy old vinyl.

Excellent post, there sure seems to be a lot of truth to the above, though there are some well recorded and true sounding cd/sacds out there. One of my solutions to the above was to buy a real instrument (non electronic) and learning how to play it, no cd/ipod/mp3,digital,etc.interference!

[BillH2121]

"CDs sound spectacular and unreal. It's the unreal part that keeps me playing scratchy old vinyl."

Mark - I agree with everything you say in your two posts above. And I too prefer vinyl to cds. However, its the "scratchy" in the "scratchy old vinyl" that I can't handle. Surface noise and assorted "pops, clicks, and ticks" distract me and lessen my enjoyment. That's why I've compromised somewhat and purchased a cd player that sounds more analog to me than my former cdp. I no longer have a source for used records in my city and the hassle of ordering records on line and sending them back when they have imperfections is too much. I have a collection of lps that I will listen to over and over but I also now purchase cds. I agree that cds can sound unnatural, but there are some horrendously recorded lps out there also. My new cd player cost 6 times more than my old player and it definately does not sound 6 times better - but it does sound quite a bit better to my ear and is worth the cost to me for being able to enjoy the convenience of purchasing cds.

[maxg]

Bloody hell Mark - there is a lot there. Where to start?

OK - high mass CD players - kinda goes with the territory but is that really unreasonable? If, as I posited, reading a CD is actually a very physical process then isolation for your CD player should be every bit as important as it is for a record player. I have seen many designs over the years - even suspended players - all apparently trying to isolate player from environment. Generally the more work they have put in the more I like the resultant sound - but not always.

The dig at the music is a bit confused - I cannot tell if you are railing against the lack of good taste in the world or the horrors that CD has inflicted on music. There is nothing inherent in the design of CD playback that I can see that should deny a musical experience and as others have said there are perfectly horrible records out there.

You could say that the modern disease of compression of the sound (to make it sound good on the interent radio station) is largely at fault for the paucity of the modern musical experience - but again that is hardly a fault of the medium. CD can cater for an enormous dynamic range - and sometimes does.

I would also not be that sure that the analogue experience is really quite as "infinite" in its equivalent of sampling rate as you state. There must be a lower limit on the amount of motion of a coil through a magnetic field that can produce a detectable output - there, if not in one of many other places, is a limit. How that compares to 44.1 Khz I have absolutely no idea - maybe it is better than 2.8 million Hz that is SACD for all I know.

Of course I cannot argue that CD sounds better than vinyl - that is simply not my experience - but I am not at all sure these issues are the real issues.

Finally - I think it says something that we are still discussing CD as the primary digital medium so many years after the launch of SACD and DVDa - I am just not sure what.....

[anarchist]

Max,

That cheap $20 CD-ROM in your computer - be it a laptop or desktop - undergoes far more abuse, knocking around, and instability than ANY "audiophile" transport. The ability to read those bits perfectly is critical for an OS and these drives never have a problem. They weigh less than a pound. The CD-Player in your car can manage to not skip a beat flying over a set of train tracks or highways curbs and weighs less than a couple pounds.

Weight, relative to CD or DVD players, is of no importance at all. Think about it. You are sticking a 1.5 ounce drive tray in an 80 lb box. So what? Any better than a 5 lb box? You may not be able to move the 80lb box with a slap but it has no bearing on the resulting vibration or rather isolation of the drive tray. Sure, it impresses those with more money than sense and those whom are so obsessed with one-upping their buddy or justifying their purchase they "hear" dramatic improvements. Then again, people are buying timex clocks with blue and orange stickers on them because they insist it improves the sound of their system.

I sincerely doubt any of the "golden-ears" could discern the difference between a laptop-based cd system or their 20K prized possession - in a blind test of course - provided the dacs were equivalent (and they don't require substantial mass either.)

[mike stehr]

I had a Toshiba 3950 for 2 years roughly before it started to sound real dead and flat. I left it stock and did no mods, good thing since it only lasted two years.

It did sound nice. But it had a bit of a rolled-off sound which I suppose helped with harsh and bright CD's. I think being all compact with pretty much all surface mount parts make the units more or less just burn up over it's lifetime of use. A guess.....

I bought a used Rega Planet around the same time as the 3950 DVD player, the Rega still works and sounds fine. I got a whole pile of early '90's vintage CDP's, a couple Pioneer 6 disc cartridge types, and a couple Sony's and a Onkyo. One of the Sony's has a digital output.

They all still work.

I'm playing now with cheepy Dual 601 hooked up to a vintage JVC integrated amp, and the Cornwalls. The TT does need some help, but records sure do sound more natural......

[oldenough]

Let me be the first to admit that i know diddly about figures when it comes to digital, 44Khz???, 64 Bits???, 8X over sampling???.

What i do know is that my venerable old (1983) Sony cdp 200 which is now relegated to my dining room, and playing through an old RCA tube console is still playing the sweetest music of the many players i've tried. If it was'nt for the occasional skipping and not liking to play some of the newer discs it would still be doing full time duty. Just for the record it weighs a ton, and has a real solid construction, i'm sure you could pick it up by the tray with no ill effects. It's replacement was a Denon Dcd 1520, and i've yet to find anything reasonably priced to replace or better that equally old player..