POLL: Fun with bias/voltage meters? What is your wall voltage?

[meagain]

Mas - everyone told me to change the fuses to the right spec. If my wireing guage says to use 15 amps, what is wrong with removing the 20 & 30 fuses to put in 15? Cuz that's what I was told to do here. For safety purposes.

You're right though. Running this room to it's own circuit would be vastly easier/cheaper than moving the outdoor outlet. Hopefully there's enough avail oomph from the fuse box to add it. IDK.

[NOSValves]

re: Voltage Regulators and Dean's Voltage Regulation thread.... http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/1/842957/ShowThread.aspx

Post #5 by DJK - "The Furman uses an autoformer that goes in 5V steps. The voltage can change a total of 10V (worst case) on any given step before it will change which tap it uses.

Example: If the line voltage coming in is 115V, the unit does nothing (it is withing 5V of 120V). If the voltage rised to 125V, the unit does nothing (it is withing 5V of 120V).

During quiet passages in the music, switching taps can cause the timbre of the system backround hum to change (you would have to hear this to see how annoying it can be)."

He's right. Both the cheaper Furmans do this as I suspected. Just got off the phone with a Tech.

If the wall voltage is: 115-124 - the Furman will do nothing. If wall voltage is at 125, it will regulate it to 121. Basically my average wall volt is 121-124. Unless the wall volts goes to 125+, the furman is doing no voltage regulation at all. They do have a model that will do +/- 1v but that lists at $1500. I have to double check the Monster AVS-2000, but I think it does the same deal, only the monster will display the volts to allow me to avoid putting a meter in it's outlet to get the volts to know where to bias the amps. My chat with Furman confirmed my suspicions. He suggested a Variac and said the Furman could possibly be modded with an autoformer to keep it in a tighter range. But clearly unless I'm running at 125+, this unit will do nothing to regulate my voltage.

We even went over the numbers:

Wall 121 --> 121, 122 --> 122, 123 --> 123, 124 (cusp) --> 124, 125 --> 121, 126 --> 122, 127 --> 123. Doesn't start regulating till wall is 125.

DJK is reading the Furman specs wrong or the technical surport engineer at Furman is bald face lying. I was told point blank that the Furman AR1215 and AR-15-II both will correct all incoming voltages to 120V unless at the extremes of the operating range like 97V on the low side or 141V on the high side.

The +-5V spec could be read to mean what DJK interpreted it mean or what it actually means. If your wall voltage is 115 the Furman will output 120V if your wall voltage is 125V it will output 120V. I ask very point blank questions with the tech support engineer. I even ask them what it would do if iot was 122V and his reply was "output 120V".

Obviously your getting a different set of answers then I received just a few days ago.

Craig

[Champagne taste beer budget]

If I may be so brazen as to sidetrack this thread a smidgeon...

Mr Mas, I am somehow oddly offended by this line in your signature:

DaretoSlack : When birds fly in the right formation, they need only exert half the effort. Even in nature, teamwork results in collective laziness

I daresay that is not laziness, but efficiency. I don't know that laziness is a trait that can be attrributed to any animal other than man, and only because we have developed enough to know what is required to do to survive. Some will simply choose to do just the minimum. I believe the correct line should be:

In all of nature, teamwork results in increased efficiency.

Of course, your line may be in jest, in which case you may disregard this post completly. []

[LarryC]

He suggested a Variac and said the Furman could possibly be modded with an autoformer to keep it in a tighter range.

I am only a one-person household with 150-amp service. I have 22 circuits, mostly 15-amps with only lights or light appliances and the washing machine, none of which come anywhere near the theoretical 15 amp X 120v = 1,800 max total watts on such a circuit.

Then of course the heavy appliances (central A/C, electric range, electric dryer), which use 230v and have 50 to 80 amp double circuit breakers (question: if each of the pair is labeled "50" does that mean 50 or 100?).

Then, there are the heavier 120-v. circuits, CB'd at 20 amps for the directly-wired dishwasher and kitchen plugs. Theoretical max total wattage = 120 X 20 = 2,400 watts on each of those.

And, my two 20-amp isolated ground, metal-clad (for RFI and EMI rejection) circuits for my stereo equipment -- one solely for the two tube monoblocs, which being Class A use a steady 500 watts each, or about 1,000 watts on that 2,400 max total available wattage. The other, separate IG/MC circuit is for the rest of the components (including the PS Audio P-300), which probably never come close to maxing even 1,000 watts.

I don't have anything exotic like pond pumps to make in-house electricity squirrely.

Now (moving slowly toward my point): each monobloc's output tubes are powered up by a variac for that monobloc (the other tubes stay on all the time). I slowly turn up the variac until that amp's digital readout of what is called the "filament voltage" settles in at around 64.0. Naturally, I do this separately for each amp. (My remote hasn't come in as yet.) Looking at this readout through the day, I apparently don't get big swings in neighborhood or household voltage, since, once stabililzed on 64.0, the digital readout usually doesn't go below 63 or higher than 64.5 during any time of the day or night. But I can see it droop some in mid-afternoon and climb again by mid-evening. Not quickly, though.

Adding up just the big appliances, range and dryer @20 amps each for 5,000 watts on 230v., and 13 amps for the 3,000-watt, 230v. A/C, pushes gets me up to about 60 amps if all that's on at once. The 1,000w. monobloc pair =s 8 to 9 amps, and the rest seem to me to be loose change (300 watt computer = 2.5 amps, 100w light bulb = 0.8, etc.). Lookin' more and more like very difficult to get up to even 100 amps, let alone 150.

HOWEVER a question that may apply to Lisa: do problems rise if pushed to the service limit????? Would my voltage vary more and get into trouble if I had only 100-amp service? So far, 150 seems to work OK for me.

Larry

[NOSValves]

Lisa,

I just got off the phone with another Furman tech support engineer Call 707-763-1010 EXT. 2370 this Tech Support Engineer would like to know who is giving you improper information about Furman products. It always does some correction since it has no way to bypass the transformer. If your wall voltage is 124V it may output 121V and so on.

Craig

[Groomlakearea51]

Minuteman Pro's at wall (varies between 119 and 121); from the Pro's batteries at ~120.1 to the Furman M8-D's which consistently show 120 (tested at 120.1 several times). Pro's will go crazy with a signal if there's an imbalance + ~5 volts. That means it's time to shut down..... Wall power was very bad until about a year ago, as low as 115 and as high as 124 at night; Hurricanes in 04' and again in 05' wiped out most of the grid and Florida Power & Light had to upgrade and replace all kinds of stuff, including most of the poles, half the pole cans, etc. Since then, it's quite good. But then again, hurricane season starts in a month.....

[meagain]

DJK is reading the Furman specs wrong or the technical surport engineer at Furman is bald face lying. I was told point blank that the Furman AR1215 and AR-15-II both will correct all incoming voltages to 120V unless at the extremes of the operating range like 97V on the low side or 141V on the high side.

The +-5V spec could be read to mean what DJK interpreted it mean or what it actually means. If your wall voltage is 115 the Furman will output 120V if your wall voltage is 125V it will output 120V. I ask very point blank questions with the tech support engineer. I even ask them what it would do if iot was 122V and his reply was "output 120V".

Obviously your getting a different set of answers then I received just a few days ago.

Craig

I know. It's a problem for me. But the guy I talked to was quite adamant and I verified that I fully understood his explanation which was - from 115 to 125, the furman would do nothing. Which is exactly how I took the specs to read when Dean started that thread a while back. Tech guy saying exactly what djk is saying. I wonder how many tech people they have there per day cuz it makes sense to call again. But my guy sure sounded like he knew his stuff. IDK.

LOL - Your guy said 122v would do 120? Mine said 122 would do 122. Why must everything be so complicated?

[meagain]

Lisa,

I just got off the phone with another Furman tech support engineer Call 707-763-1010 EXT. 2370 this Tech Support Engineer would like to know who is giving you improper information about Furman products. It always does some correction since it has no way to bypass the transformer. If your wall voltage is 124V it may output 121V and so on.

Craig

Did he sound like a different guy than you talked to before at least? I didn't get my guy's name. But wait.... I'm 99% sure Dean said his unit was giving him 124? I recall reading he even said a steady 124 (highish) is better than.... something like that. I'm going to find his posts on that then cross my fingers that he'll slap some meters on that puppy. These gadgets are all very confusing.

[NOSValves]

Well I have two guys to your one guy so I win....... Yea they make it hard. When someone seams to sound like they no what they are talking about is when I start to worry [] What my latest guy says makes perfect sense to me. I am so pissed about I just snatched up one of them on eBay and I will see for myself. What the heck I don't need it and can always sell it. I really wanted one for shows anyway the voltage is usually way low when doing shows or at hotels. At AK fest its down to 105V! I use Isotaps and a variac to bring it up. This will look and work better. We planned to check Dean's out at AK this year but he chickened out thinking Parrot and I would pick on his Jub's too much.....the darn wimp.

My bet is it always keeps it right near 120V it maybe a little less accurate as the voltage gets closer to 120V but I bet it still drops it if its too high and raises it if its to low.

Craig

[Guest " "]

Mas - everyone told me to change the fuses to the right spec.  If my wireing guage says to use 15 amps, what is wrong with removing the 20 & 30 fuses to put in 15?  Cuz that's what I was told to do here.  For safety purposes.

You're right though.  Running this room to it's own circuit would be vastly easier/cheaper than moving the outdoor outlet.  Hopefully there's enough avail oomph from the fuse box to add it.  IDK.

You have 20 and 30 amp fuses on a 15 amp line.......get off this forum and have someone change these now.

[NOSValves]

Lisa,

I just got off the phone with another Furman tech support engineer Call 707-763-1010 EXT. 2370 this Tech Support Engineer would like to know who is giving you improper information about Furman products. It always does some correction since it has no way to bypass the transformer. If your wall voltage is 124V it may output 121V and so on.

Craig

Did he sound like a different guy than you talked to before at least? I didn't get my guy's name. But wait.... I'm 99% sure Dean said his unit was giving him 124? I recall reading he even said a steady 124 (highish) is better than.... something like that. I'm going to find his posts on that then cross my fingers that he'll slap some meters on that puppy. These gadgets are all very confusing.

Dean never said his was giving him 124V your wrong there... He said his wall voltage was 124 and it was still lighting up on the 120V output or something like that.

I talked to two different guys.The first guy was the head boss over all tech support, The second guy was interested in who gave you that in-correct information. He said they would not guarantee exactly 120V out with 124V in but it would be closer to 120V then 124V. The Furman has no straight thru transformer bypassing tap so it always has to do something. I'll find out for myself soon. Then I'll sell you the one I have for a small profit. They retail for $850 don't they []

If you called today you were giving to temporary fill in guys since the head of tech support is out of the office.

Craig

[anarchist]

It is not remotely difficult to get to 100 amps. That is 12000 watts. You can hit that number with:

3 ton AC - 4500 watts

refrigerator and freezer - 1350 watts

electric water heater - 5000 watts

oven - 7500 watts

Jeez, a blow dryer is close to tapping out a 15 amp circuit all by itself.

BTW, in most states the absolute minimum is 100AMP service. That doesn't account for AC,.heating, and all the other devices between used today.

Depending on the house:

Service can be upgraded from 100 to 200 for about 800 - 1500.

Rewiring the entire house could be done for $2k - $4k

PS.There is a lot of information about motors on electical circuits and the reasons you don't share them with electronic components. Lisa has already discovered those reasons.

[meagain]

Well I have two guys to your one guy so I win....... Yea they make it hard. When someone seams to sound like they no what they are talking about is when I start to worry [] What my latest guy says makes perfect sense to me. I am so pissed about I just snatched up one of them on eBay and I will see for myself. What the heck I don't need it and can always sell it. I really wanted one for shows anyway the voltage is usually way low when doing shows or at hotels. At AK fest its down to 105V! I use Isotaps and a variac to bring it up. This will look and work better. We planned to check Dean's out at AK this year but he chickened out thinking Parrot and I would pick on his Jub's too much.....the darn wimp.

My bet is it always keeps it right near 120V it maybe a little less accurate as the voltage gets closer to 120V but I bet it still drops it if its too high and raises it if its to low.

Craig

LOL!!! The AR-15 ii ?

From Dean "Craig, input voltage display on the front normally shows 125v, and I

did measure once after we talked and the meter showed 120.6v." I was told at 125 in, Furman would do 120. But the front display on the furman only shows 110, 115, 120, 125 so IDK if Dean was going off the front panel (not accurate) or metered at wall. But if at 125 at wall, this would be in line with what my guy told me.

"A stable and consistant 124v is certainly better than swings between 117v and 128v" Furman put him at 124 here. IDK. Dean, where are ye?

[dtel's wife]

"IDK - the electrician worked on the fuse box and didn't say anything was scarey and given that such people have a tendancy to want more money.... I'd think he would have said something.

I'll try to puzzle out where we'd put a new electric outlet for the pond and have it on it's own fuse. This will be a MASSIVE project. Will likely take a while before I can find someone, get estimates, get a plan, and get it done."

It is highly possible the electrician realized the "Scope of Project" involved with rewiring an older home. Renovations require a lot of extra work for contractors. I say this because even in the landscaping business a landscape renovation is much more costly to the homeowner than a landscape project started on new construction.

The pond would be best having its own outlet. The outlet for the pond is only a small portion of your problem if I am reading this thread correctly. The outlet for the pond would only be a "fix" to your current problem. Seriously Lisa you need to listen to these guys, a lot of them know a lot about electricity, i.e. wiring houses etc. The little I know I have learned from dtel and I can tell you based on what I am reading in this thread you need a good, honest electrician that isn't afraid to tackle the job a hand. Of course, I don't know that much about wiring houses etc, but I helped dtel wire our house and I can tell you, you had better be safe than sorry.

Although, with all the other problems you have expressed regarding that house.......maybe you shouldn't worry about the electrical issues. Just make sure you insurance is up to date, all of your electronic equipment is "scheduled" on your policy, as well as any other valuables you may have.

Most insurance policies limit pay out on electronics to $2500.00 to $5,000.00 if they are not "scheduled".

[@silverfox@]

anarchist!

remember that the loads given are always baised on 240volts, also this is not maintained as appliance reach

its opperating temp and turns its self off , diversity.

[meagain]

dtel's wife - Yes, I'd love to have my house electrical totally ramped up to have a 200amp setup, but I can't cuz we have to remodel (big time) and there's a 98% chance it would have to be ripped out in short order. So I'm pretty stuck there.

Craig - when do you get it? I assume you got the one we talked about.

[Deang]

What did Craig buy?

[Deang]

Craig, input voltage display on the front normally shows 125v, and I did measure once after we talked and the meter showed 120.6v. Only twice since I've owned it have I seen the input voltage display go to 130v (around midnight). It wouldn't surprise me if it bumps up most nights after I crash. Next time it hits 130v I'll take a reading and see what it is. I still think these things are a good idea, especially in an area like mine where every low pressure system that moves through has the lights flickering.

Furman manual: http://www.furmansound.com/pdf/manuals/AR-1215_manual.pdf

Post above is from page 9. Normally 124 at the wall, 125 light lit up on the front (input voltage), and 120.6 at one of the plug ins on the back of the Furman.

I am NOT a whimp -- I'm a backstabbing SOB.[]

[meagain]

OK, but are you saying at that very time you were reading the 124 at the wall, you ran to the machine and put the prongs in and it tested at 120.6? Cuz according to what I was told if it went to 125, it would regulate but 124 was the cusp and wouldn't but he said there might be some variable there and one could get lucky basically.

Craig - I'm glad you're getting one so we can know what it really does. [:$]

[meagain]

Dean - You have 2 PMs.