I heard Rigma's jubs! nya, nya-ya, nyaan, y***

[oldbuckster]

Hey deang, when did you realize your signature ???????? My point all along..........."God save the Queen"..............EH ?????

[rigma]

Have you guys noticed that the lowest bass exists in between the speakers...

How do you know it's the lowest notes, did you measure with a RTA? How do you know it isn't +15dB at 80Hz?

How do I know? It's obvious if you have a good set of ears and know what to listen for. It's well belov 80 hz. where I'm talking about....and you don't detect it in front of the speakers. It's like it comes out the sides.

Plus...sorry to say I have a pair of Khorns that still play lower. I know I know...Roy's charts and all...but in my house the Khorns play lower. Again...by my ear...and pretty obvious. No measurements.

Mark1101,

Yea, I guess it could be the room or maybe even some of the changes JC made when building.

I still have Khorns also, that were in the same room and location that the Jub clones are in, and I find the Jub's bass is much cleaner and actually goes a little lower than my Khorns. This was also confirmed with my Crown RTA, I posted those readings somewhere on the forum just don't remember the thread. The 402 horn, IMHO, is also far superior to Khorn's 401.

rigma

[mark1101]

Rigma,

Thanks for commenting on this. I don't mean to hijack or take away from this thread. I certainly don't want to start another "you know what". I only bring up my Khorns as a point of comparison. I'm sure the room is definitely involved and so is the source and driving equipment. I happen to have my Khorns in a better sounding room, the Jubs in a bigger and worse sounding room. Nothing I can do about that because of required corners. I need room treatments.

JC told me the changes he made and they were minute...1/4 in. in a couple of places if I recall. I would tend to think the room is more responsible. But again....I have made no measurements. Just what I hear.

Another thing I have found....and I make this comment just because it made a big deal in my home.....is that the Jubs sound much better to me driven by the s/s amp I have, rather than my Peach and VRDs. Did this when JC was over. The tubes sound just fine and of course smooth. But the s/s really thumps the Jub bins much more. In other words I felt like using the tubes were like running an 8 cyl. engine on only 6 cyl. The Jubs can do so much more with some s/s power applied. I'm sure you either already found out...or will.

My Jubs broke a window in my breakfast room (on the floor above) almost 25 feet above where I have them (in the basement). JC saw this. The glass did not break, but it is a half moon accent window with the fan design in between the glass panes. One of the fan blades fell down inside the glass. Looks lousy now. Wife not happy. Not cheap windows either. I did this the first day I got them running several months ago.

I agree the clarity of the Jub bass bin exceeds the Khorn bass bin clarity.

[Islander]

My Jubs broke a window in my breakfast room (on the floor above) almost 25 feet above where I have them (in the basement). JC saw this. The glass did not break, but it is a half moon accent window with the fan design in between the glass panes. One of the fan blades fell down inside the glass. Looks lousy now. Wife not happy. Not cheap windows either. I did this the first day I got them running several months ago.

Unless you were listening at really, really, extreme volume, I'd think it was a coincidence. I've had a couple of broken windows in my apartment, including one that looked like it was hit by a rock. I'm on the 9th floor, so that seems unlikely. I'm guessing mine were due to the building settling over time, and I'd guess yours was, too, or maybe the solder between the fan panels finally failed. Not surprised the wife's not happy, but you being the cause of the broken window seems like a long shot.

Did you see it break while you were listening to loud music?

[rigma]

mark1101,

I sent you a PM.

rigma

[mark1101]

I'm certain how the window broke...so is my wife. []. When I came up stairs with the jubs playing it was like the whole kitchen was coming apart. You could hear the dishes and glasses in the cabinets. The light fixture was vibrating. Yes it was really loud.

I experienced the same exact thing at Richard Albright's house. Except it was his fireplace that was coming apart.

Vibration from the jubs can be outstanding. My Khorns can thump, but nowhere's like that.

Although they are not cheap I probably do have a defective window if vibration can move the pieces between the panes.

[mark1101]

Rigma,

PM returned.

[stormin]

I'm certain how the window broke...so is my wife. []. When I came up stairs with the jubs playing it was like the whole kitchen was coming apart. You could hear the dishes and glasses in the cabinets. The light fixture was vibrating. Yes it was really loud.

I experienced the same exact thing at Richard Albright's house. Except it was his fireplace that was coming apart.

Vibration from the jubs can be outstanding. My Khorns can thump, but nowhere's like that.

Although they are not cheap I probably do have a defective window if vibration can move the pieces between the panes.

Mark,

Sounds like you are a perfect candidate for a big QSC if you like to thump. You are definitely a "wild man".[]

[Deang]

"How do I know? It's obvious if you have a good set of ears and know what to listen for..."

"...in my house the Khorns play lower. Again...by my ear...and pretty obvious. No measurements."

You have to measure. Period.

[mikebse2a3]

Another thing I have found....and I make this comment just because it made a big deal in my home.....is that the Jubs sound much better to me driven by the s/s amp I have, rather than my Peach and VRDs. Did this when JC was over. The tubes sound just fine and of course smooth. But the s/s really thumps the Jub bins much more. In other words I felt like using the tubes were like running an 8 cyl. engine on only 6 cyl. The Jubs can do so much more with some s/s power applied. I'm sure you either already found out...or will.

Mark maybe you tried this but the Jubs LF Horn is pretty much a 4 ohm load and are best driven at 4 0hms on a tube amp in this region. How that balances with what you are using for a HF section will depend though.

mike tn[]

[DrWho]

Mike, I connect a 3 ohm resistor in series with

each K-69-A when I get a Saturday to myself -- mostly for movies. The

top really needs to come down about 3dB to get the right balance at

most volumes, maybe a bit more if you're really going to drive them up.

A lot of this relates to the equal loudness contours.

Are you sure about that? I dare say I've grown accustomed to how

instruments sound at low volumes as well as loud volumes, so any amount

of equal loudness is subconciously compensated by my hearing. I would probably lean

more towards blaiming room acoustics?

I don't want to rule out my need for more ear training, but in this

case I'm fairly confident my ears weren't playing tricks on me. Heck,

the room was treated rather well and the khorns sounded just fine at

the same volumes, so the only thing left to blaim is the speakers?

Was the listening you were doing in that bigger room with the

60th Anniversary Klipschorns behind the Jubilees? I wonder how the low

end response was impacted by them being pulled out like that.

I'm not sure which you consider the bigger room, but this was the room

just next to the chamber that had the Synergy system at the last Indy

Pilgrimage. It's not the room that the Heritage stuff was demo'd in

(that room sounded awful). Based on the numbers Roy has posted, pulling

them out would

definitely be detrimental to the low frequency extension...not to

mention an extra set of boundary cancellations right around the 80Hz.

I'd like to think I was ignoring some of the lower end of the bassbin,

but I would also be the first to argue the impact of bass on the

perceived midrange too...

Thinking more about it, I wonder if the EQ sections in the passive were

attenuating slightly different frequencies and what I was hearing was

some of the peakiness in the natural response of the speaker. I can

totally see that happening because we were pushing the limits of the

10% tolerance using the random parts that were available...It just

sounded nowhere near what we heard in Hope and I'd hate for the

comparison against the khorn to be crap as a result... (those 60th's

sound real nice in that room)

[DrWho]

Have you guys noticed that the lowest bass exists in between the speakers (and even slightly behind them if you stand in between them), not in front of them? I have moved my Jub clone cabinets all over the place and this is what I notice. My cornwalls do this to some extent too.

When I say "in between" I mean standing as if you are a center channel speaker. Right in the middle of them in a straight line.

What are the dimensions of your room? I would bet $20 that the frequency you hear is going to correlate to a standing wave in your room. In other words, what you are hearing is room related and has nothing to do with the speaker...You should notice this behavior with every speaker you put in the room, and almost regardless of its position too - which seems to correlate with your perceptions with the cornwall. The only exception will be when you have a speaker that happens to have enough directivity to avoid stimulating the standing wave.

[DrWho]

Plus...sorry to say I have a pair of Khorns that still play lower. I know I know...Roy's charts and all...but in my house the Khorns play lower. Again...by my ear...and pretty obvious. No measurements.

I don't see anything that contradicts your perceptions:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/storage/3/761352/khjub.PDF

But with the crazy standing waves going on in your room, I wouldn't be surprised if the 2dB anechoic difference (hard to hear) doesn't come out to a 6dB difference in your room (very audible). I say "6dB" when really I mean the ringing of your room, but it'll show up in the frequency response as extra output.

[Deang]

Are you sure about that?

I'm sure about what happens in my room, but not sure about what happens in anyone else's room. Without a microphone, it's just speculation.

[DrWho]

Have you guys noticed that the lowest bass exists in between the speakers...

How do you know it's the lowest notes, did you measure with a RTA? How do you know it isn't +15dB at 80Hz?

How do I know? It's obvious if you have a good set of ears and know what to listen for.

I think the point Dean is trying to make is how do you know that

what you correlate to any frequency is actually that frequency? In

other words, what measurements are you relying on that also involved

listening to know what 80Hz sounds like? Or, how do you know what a

frequency sounds like without measuring it?

I'll be the first to claim that I thought I had a handle on a lot of

sounds, but it turns out I was way off when I started measuring. I

learned more about correlating sounds in 2 months by measuring

everything and its mother than I did in 12 years of live mixing. It's

way cool because I thought I was good at notching out feedback

before....now I can just go to the dial and fix it as fast as I can

turn the knobs [] I've still got a long way to go, but I think many

would be surprised by what they consider to be certain

frequencies....especially if they're basing their perceptions off the

random piano note frequency charts (where you will be misled by the

harmonics of the problem). It's kinda getting fun because I'm getting

to the point where I can get a feel for the behavior of a system just

be hearing sweeps or pink noise...now to find a way to hear whatever

song I wanna hear that's buried in the noise...[8-|]

[DrWho]

Are you sure about that?

I'm sure about what happens in my room, but not sure about what happens in anyone else's room. Without a microphone, it's just speculation.

lol, so when you getting a mic? Wanna borrow my rig sometime? I would be curious to see what your room is doing. In fact, I would love to see what everyone's room is doing. I've gotta believe that there will be some correlation between the behavior of the rooms and the equipment people choose. Maybe it's naive, but I believe there are some underlying principals that yield results universally accepted as "good".

[jwc]

Another thing I have found....and I make this comment just because it made a big deal in my home.....is that the Jubs sound much better to me driven by the s/s amp I have, rather than my Peach and VRDs. Did this when JC was over. The tubes sound just fine and of course smooth. But the s/s really thumps the Jub bins much more. In other words I felt like using the tubes were like running an 8 cyl. engine on only 6 cyl. The Jubs can do so much more with some s/s power applied. I'm sure you either already found out...or will.

Mark maybe you tried this but the Jubs LF Horn is pretty much a 4 ohm load and are best driven at 4 0hms on a tube amp in this region. How that balances with what you are using for a HF section will depend though.

mike tn[]

Mark. I can't remember the resistor ALK recommended for you to place on your "high out" to go to the ES5800.

Mike tn's point is a good one. ALK made the "high out" resistor to make the entire network 4 ohms.

I think it is worth trying a tap switch to see what happens.

jc

[Coytee]

Plus...sorry to say I have a pair of Khorns that still play lower. I know I know...Roy's charts and all...but in my house the Khorns play lower. Again...by my ear...and pretty obvious. No measurements.

Well...I got a kick out of that comment because I use to have a pair of Khorns and my experience was directly opposite !! hmm...very interesting

[*-)]

[jwc]

I'm taking the easy way out on this one. I agree with Mike B. and the curves of the two bass bins. The jubilee wins in the 50-100Hz department.

Hey guys....what is your opinion of making the bass bins out of MDF like I did. You can say what you want.......I'm in no contest here. Educational purposes only. I would bet that the clone that Mark has weighs a substantial amount more than the real deal. The MDF I used was full 3/4" and greater than 80lbs per 4 x 8 sheet. They are almost like poured concrete....rediculously heavy. When you wrap your knuckles against the side.....painful and "dead". I did this on the one in Hope and Richard's (gently[:$]) last year and it had the same type of "sound" as my dbb's and cornscalas and Cornwall's did (all plywood).

What do you think? Hey, I'm trying to get yall off the Khorn vs Jubilee stuff.

jc

[DrWho]

Did you paint all of the MDF panels? MDF isn't exactly air tight unless the surface is finished. I didn't believe it either until I felt the air of a vacuum cleaner being sucked through unfinished MDF [] That's essentially a 0Hz frequency and I've no doubt the behavior isn't linear with frequency so I've gotta wonder how large and what kind of an impact it might have? Probably not much, but it's interesting to think about...especially when playing at loud volumes.

I honestly prefer to work with plywood and the very limited experiences I've had building with both lend me to believe plywood is the better route to go. But I suppose the proper engineering approach is to consider the cost-benefit analysis and choose the better material for the specific job. Somewhere I read about a guy that could build curved or pretty much any shape MDF panels. I think it would be an interesting way to experiment with perfectly curved bass horn walls (like Roy prefers to do).