Calling all Khorn experts!

[wallflower]

Heres my situationI need help...

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I have 1988 Khorns and Ive added the 60^th Anniversary style backs to them. That upgrade is very effective at providing excellent bass response while permitting the speakers to be toed out. The effect is very good in terms of imaging and soundstage. However, there seems to be an issue with the squawker in that many times vocals will sound constrained and even harsh or grainy. The sound is as though its coming from an enclosed space, sort of like a tunnel or cave.

My room is 17 by 35. Ive designed non-parallel walls for the sides walls. Currently I have no ceiling (only exposed floor joists) so I doubt Im getting any reflection there. Ive added sound deadening material at the first reflection point on the side walls coming off of the Khorns (mirror test). I also have the Khorns sitting on full bottom stands for two reasons: since the basement isnt completely finished Ive mounted wheels on the stands to accommodate moving the speakers when necessary (note: I do have markings on the floor to help in identifying the optimal location to return the speakers to when I move them), also since its in a basement, just in case, I want to protect the speakers from any potential water damage. Ive also upgraded the cross-overs to AK-3s (from Bob Crites).

What I have to compare are my 1981 La Scalas with new Bob Crites AA networks. It seems the La Scalas sound much better at higher volumes than the Khorns with the AK-3s. I dont notice any of the graininess or harshness with the La Scala/AA combination. In fact I prefer my La Scalas, however they dont produce anywhere near the bottom end that the Khorns generate.

The speakers are tucked into the corners but at the same time toed out to accommodate imaging and soundstage (squawker and tweeter pointing just past my ears to the outside). My listening position is about 14 feet from the center line of the speakers (which seems to be optimal for imaging). The stands are about 5 tall.

Currently the system consists of:

BlueBerry Xtreme Pre-amp

Conrad Johnson MF-2500 A Power Amp

Rega Saturn CDP

VPI Scout/ Dyanvector 10x5

1988 Khorns or 1981 La Scalas

My questions are:

Do I potentially have a diaphragm issue with one or both of my squawkers?

Am I experiencing an issue because of the stands and the angles they create to my listening position?

Any other ideas?

Thanks in advance for your help!!

Jeff

[HDBRbuilder]

Putting the K-horns on the stands caused part of the problem, which was further compounded by the fact that the stands are on wheels. What is happening should pretty much disappear once you get the floor in that room finished, take the K-horns off the stands and let the bass bin get a good seal to the floor, which is part of the continuation of the bass horn lens itself. Also, because the mid and tweeter horns are now higher from the floor on those stands, they will likely completely overshoot your head at a sitting listening position, which will add to that "talking through a culvert" sound effect to some extent.

In reality, the NORMAL ideal toe-in of horn speakers does NOT have them aimed outside the line of your ears (effectively having the centerline of both speakers cross somewhere BEHIND your head), but, instead has the centerline crossing about 6" to 12" in front of your nose. This gives a better blend of the left and right channnels, and tends to "Fill the hole" in the center of the soundstage for 2-channel listening. Otherwise the soundstage presence you have achieved is to be ON the stage in the midst of the performers, instead of IN FRONT of the stage. Speakers like K-horns and LaScalas are not headphones, so they don't have to aim at or just outside the centerline of our ears.

Just think about it for a minute, and you will see what I am talking about. You have two speakers trying to reproduce a full FRONTAL soundstage,but the toe-in is not achieving that, IOW, if you only had musicians at a live performance in each corner, then the way you have your speakers set up would work fine, but in order to reproduce the full soundstage effect, you need the blending of the left and right channels to occur JUST BEFORE the sound hits your ears, otherwise you are leaving a hole in the center of the soundstage. This is also further illustrated by the fact that in crossing the centerline just ahead of your nose on horn-loaded top end frequencies, you are eliminating a "direct hit" of the top end frequencies on your eardrums, thereby eliminating the high end frequencies' tendency to drown out some of the lower end frequencies which your EARS are actually capable of picking up (remember, the lower the bottom-end frequency, the less of it is actually picked up by your ears, and the more of it is actually picked up by your body mass, instead...your brain just fools you into thinking your ears are hearing those low frequencies). Look at it this way, is it better to listen to a trumpet playing in front of you, or playing right into (or beside one of) your ears?

Once you get the floor done, and get some kind of ceiling into that room, and put those bass bins ON THE FLOOR, your listening experience will improve dramatically!

[wallflower]

Thanks for the input!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Actually the stands are ostensibly a complete floor, meaning the Khorn sits over a solid piece of two 3/4" sheets of Baltic birch plywood laminated to each other and the surface area of the stand platform is larger than the bottom of the Khorn, so I think the stands are accomplishing the task of completing the bass horn lens. Think of it as an extension of the floor which sits on rollers.

On the other hand I can see where the potential exists for the extra height created by the stands to be causing a problem for the mid and high frequencies.

Perhaps I just need to put the La Scalas into action until I finish the room??....

[Klewless]

HDBRbuilder,

One of the best pieces of advice I have see on this forum in a long time.

Thank you.

[redwood forest]

Wallflower, using the false corners is a good thing allowing you to place the cabinets where they sound best, not confining them in the corner. The constrained midfrequency sound is due to the exponential horn that Klipsch uses. I am using Al Klappenberger's "Trachorn" and it has made all the difference in the world. The imaging is extremely realistic and focused. One can identify the exact position of every source of sound in the image.

I had the same harsh and grainy sound from the K-horns until I changed over to Al Klappenberger's "Universal Crossover" which also made a huge improvement. You don't have to worry about the toe-out or toe in position. My K-horns are aimed directly at the sweetspot, everything sounds realistic. The harsh and grainy sound is also due to the bad choice of tweeter used in the K-horn. While the JBL 2404 tweeter I use is $300 each, the sound quality far exceeds the quality of sound of the tweeter used in the K-horn.

As for the bass of the K-horn, nothing in the world could be done to improve that. Don't even think about it as it would be a total waste of time.

At this forum, there are two deeply divided groups: those that are traditional, and those that are progressive. The former believe that anything Klipsch said is law and therefore untouchable. The latter believe that the knowledge that Klipsch provided is invaluable, but is a starting point from which to improve. Therefore I am traditional when it comes to the bass, and progressive when it comes to the upper horns, and the use of false corners. It's now time to decide if you believe in tradition or progress.

[wallflower]

Thanks all for the input! Keep it coming!!!

I took the advice and moved the crossing point of the top hat (crossing somewhere around 12" in front of my face). That made a huge difference. The image became much more defined but it also had the effect of reducing the harshness. Specifically it made some of my old rock (which sounded pretty horrible before) sound really great. It seems that the crossing point and harshness had more to do with vocals, and music with lots of distortion (noise), and less to do with music such as jazz. This is very good news because I was beginning to believe I wouldn't be able to enjoy my classic rock on the Khorns.

The Khorns are amazing speakers, but they are a real PAIN to get set properly. I've got a pretty good room for them and it's still been very difficult to get the setup right; and that's with the ability to toe the speakers. I can certainly see why many people have tried Khorns and subsequently disliked them.

Thanks again for all the great advice. This is a great forum!!

Jeff

[HDBRbuilder]

John P., Thanks! Just trying to help.

Wallflower,

I'm glad that my suggestion helped some in solving your problem. Lots of folks just don't know about "setting the soud-stage" and feel that speakers need to be aimed at their ears.

Bose has made a fortune from utilizing "sound-staging" (in lieu of making accurate speakers), because the speakers which made the company famous (model 901) sent just over 10% of the radiated sound AT the listener, while the remainder was reflected towards the listener from the wall/walls BEHIND the speaker (Bose model 901).

That's what I meant when I said you don't want mid or high frequency horns aimed DIRECTLY at your ears. Have you ever noticed that in an UNAMPLIFIED band with horns in it, especially those "big band" types of bands OR even a philharmonic orchestra...the horns being played are never aimed directly at the audience's heads, but, instead, the players either aim them downward or upward over the heads of the audience, so as not to overwhelm the rest of the band/orchestra's musical instruments. Even in Jazz combos, take for instance, Louis Armstrong: When he played, he either played his trumpet facing at an angle to the audiece, OR he panned the mouth of it back and forth, while aiming it over the audience's heads. His trumpet's mouth was never aimed DIRECTLY at the heads of his audience! There is a reason for this, as I have outlined in the previous reply on this thread.

So, just look at the mid and high frequency horns of your speakers as a trumpet, and do with them as the professional musicians do with theirs, using your head in your listening position as the heads of an audience at a live venue. You want the sound of the music DIRECTED TOWARD you, NOT AIMED AT YOU.[]

A lot of the hassle of getting a pair of speakers toed in/out toward the listener's so-called "sweet spot" is eliminated when you use a three-speaker stereo array. That is precisely WHY PWK was such a proponent of that set-up!

As for your K-horns on those stands, once you get them ONTO the floor, so that their weight can help to couple them to the floor, you will FEEL more bottom end because the vibrations of that bottom end will be traveling through the floor to your feet, through the legs of the chair you sit in, etc. Remember, your body mass picks up the lower frequencies, NOT your ears, and your BONES pick up the lowest of those because they are denser than the rest of your body mass, and they carry that directly to your skull, which is where you want it to go, so that your brain can fool you into thinking you are "hearing" it with your ears.

The K-horn, when set up properly in a good room corner, uses the walls and floor as an EXTENSION of the bass horn lens, NOT just a completion of that horn lens. So, although your added-on sides and bottom of your false corner provide a COMPLETION of the BASS BIN horn lens, having that false corner NOT in DIRECT contact with the floor itself, eliminates the ideal EXTENSION of the horn lens along the only remaining possibility of an extension of the lens. So, in order for your body mass to pick up the LOWEST of the bottom end the bass bin produces, the bass bin needs to be on the floor, so that it will carry all the way to YOU at your listening position. Right now, the only thing coupling the bass bin to the floor are the wheels, which are considerably LESS footprint than than the bottom of the speaker itself. Does that help you understand what I meant a bit better?

That's why totally deaf people, with completely non-functioning ears, can dance, because the "beat" goes through the floor to their body mass (especially their feet/skeletal mass) and their brains will still interpret it as sound.

[wallflower]

HDBRbuilder-<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Great response!

With the backs on these Khorns I'm already getting tremendous bass response. I'm not sure I want any more. Now I'm curious if putting them on the floor is going to be too much; as it is they'll rumble your seat and stomach.

Thanks again for the great feedback.

Jeff

[HDBRbuilder]

Jeff,

Putting the bass bins on the floor will not increase the decibels of the bass frequencies you are currently getting, except at the extreme lower end of the frequency range, but it WILL EXTEND the lower end of that bass response a bit, IOW you will "hear" (feel, actually) some even LOWER bass, NOT louder bass. Don't confuse the terms "bass response" with loudness (or decibel output in a particular frequency). Putting them on the floor will not be "too much", "too much" is dictated by YOU, who has control over the volume and tone controls of the amplifier...and the choice of the music being played. If the input signal to the speakers includes a rumble, then you will hear/feel it, if it doesn't, you won't..pretty simple. Not much MUSIC signal includes a true low frequency rumble, with the exception of the 1812 Overture, of course! Now, many action DVDs on the other hand, have lots of chances for you to experience a low frequency rumble from the audio input signal!

PWK used to go into the listening room at the factory headquarters, then turn on the amps to the speakers there, turn the volume up, take his finger and swipe it across the stylus of the turntable to remove any dust bunnies gathered up there, and the K-horns would rumble like hell! Then he would look up at the people in shock that had done it, crack that wicked grin of his and say, "Don't worry about that, it doesn't hurt my speakers at all. It just helps to knock a bit of dust off the woofers!"

[ricktate]

I think he wanted to keep them off the basement floor incase of flooding. Couldn't he just lay down two layers of 3/4 plywood and still get the bass and water protection.If basement really floods the wheels wont keep the K-Horns dry anyway.Rick

[j-malotky]

Your midrange / HF harshness is due to fact that your speaker vibration energy is staying in your khorn causing your speaker to move. Your horn diaphragms are small. When you speaker vibrates, the diaphragms are moving around in space causing the audible distortion.

You need to get those off of wheels and have those Khorns stop moving with the beat so to say.

I was at Arto's house a few years ago and he has his Khorns bolted to 2 x10s that extend into the ground below his house foundation to keep his Khorns in place. He told me that the biggest benefit to that setup was the improved midrange clarity.

If water is in issue, jack up your khorns by building up wood instead of casters.

JM

[mark1101]

Wallflower,

You have some great advice given here. Let me add a little. I had the SAME EXACT problem you mention.....for a long time. I could not get my Khorns to sound better than my Lasclas. I eventually did though. Let me help save you some experimentation time and money.

Here's my prediction. You will never get the TOP SECTION of those Khorns to sound as good as the Lascalas you have so long as you have the AK-3 networks in them....period. You can change caps till you are blue in the face too. It won't matter. The AK-3 is not very good, and if you by chance have a budget cap (like a Sonicap) in the midrange section.....it's even worse. That will give the boxy "tunnel" sound you are describing. I spent a small fortune learning this stuff.

Someone made a suggestion about using ALK networks. That was the only thing I could do to make the Khorn TOP SECTIONS sound better than my Lascala TOP SECTIONS that were using AA networks. I had already ditched the AL-3 networks in my Lascalas and moved to the ALK AA. That was a huge improvement. Once I upgraded the Khorns to ALK ES networks, they finally sounded best. But not before that move.

It was very frustrating since I spent so much money rebuilding and recapping networks on my Khorns and then had to accept the K's just didn't sound as good as my LaScalas.

I agree with everyone on getting the speakers onto the floor as a start, but the biggest problem is in the networks.

[seti]

PWK used to go into the listening room at the factory headquarters, then turn on the amps to the speakers there, turn the volume up, take his finger and swipe it across the stylus of the turntable to remove any dust bunnies gathered up there, and the K-horns would rumble like hell!  Then he would look up at the people in shock that had done it, crack that wicked grin of his and say, "Don't worry about that, it doesn't hurt my speakers at all.  It just helps to knock a bit of dust off the woofers!"

LOL THAT IS FUNNY!!!

[DrWho]

Putting the K-horns on the stands caused part

of the problem, which was further compounded by the fact that the

stands are on wheels. What is happening should pretty much disappear

once you get the floor in that room finished, take the K-horns off the

stands and let the bass bin get a good seal to the floor, which is part

of the continuation of the bass horn lens itself.

The only frequency range that might be affected by such a discontinuity

in the horn would be the top-end of the bass bin response. The low

frequency performance isn't really going to change at all (since the

wavelengths are so huge).

In reality, the NORMAL ideal toe-in of horn speakers does NOT

have them aimed outside the line of your ears (effectively having the

centerline of both speakers cross somewhere BEHIND your head), but,

instead has the centerline crossing about 6" to 12" in front of your

nose. This gives a better blend of the left and right channnels, and

tends to

"Fill the hole" in the center of the soundstage for 2-channel

listening.

I might argue the concept of "normal" in this situation. The proper

toe-in of the speakers is highly dependant upon the acoustics of the

room. While angling the speakers in a bit is going to push back the

side-wall reflections, it's going to increase the front wall

reflections. Since the khorns are fixed at a 45 degree angle in the

corner, moving the listening position back narrows the arc between the

mains. If you sit right at the intersection of the on-axis, you've got

a 90 degree arc. As you move back, you're getting closer and closer to

the ideal 60 degree arc. It's the angle of this arc that determines how

well the center-stage fills in. So while moving back improves this

angle and fills the center, you're also sacrificing the direct sound

frequency response at the listening position since you're getting

off-axis from drivers that aren't constant directivity.

Lots

of folks just don't know about "setting the soud-stage" and feel that

speakers need to be aimed at their ears.

I would argue that the concept of "sound-stage" is an artifact of the

acoustics in the room. In a well treated room, you definitely want the

speakers aimed right at you so that the direct sound also has the

greatest intensity, which guarantees the largest ratio between the

direct and early reflected sound.

Have you ever noticed that in an UNAMPLIFIED band with horns in it,

especially those "big band" types of bands OR even a philharmonic

orchestra...the horns being played are never aimed directly at the

audience's heads, but, instead, the players either aim them downward or

upward over the heads of the audience, so as not to overwhelm the rest

of the band/orchestra's musical instruments.

Why then are most horns mic'ed right inside the mouth instead of off to

the side when doing recordings? I might argue that it's the position

where they sound the best and that in a live performance, the reason

for not pointing the horn at the audience has more to do with

appearance. People want to see the face of the performers, not a big

hole staring them down...

So, although your added-on sides and bottom of your false corner

provide a COMPLETION of the BASS BIN horn lens, having that false

corner NOT in DIRECT contact with the floor itself, eliminates the

ideal EXTENSION of the horn lens along the only remaining possibility

of an extension of the lens.

Not necessarily true - again, consider the wavelengths in question.

Your midrange / HF harshness is due to fact that your speaker vibration

energy is staying in your khorn causing your speaker to move. Your horn

diaphragms are small. When you speaker vibrates, the diaphragms are

moving around in space causing the audible distortion.

One of the advantages to horn loading is that the drivers don't need to

move very much in order to produce sound. As such, that 15" woofer

inside the khorn barely moves, which means the cabinet isn't going to

vibrate very much at all (most cabinet vibrations are caused by

mechanical motion of the driver). I might ask how far people think the

squawker/tweeter are moving....surely it's not on the order of inches.

Half a millimeter maybe at the most extreme SPLs? The wavelength of

20kHz is 17mm, so you're not talking that much modulation. In fact, I

would argue that there's more IMD induced by the bandwidth of the

driver itself than any shaking of the cabinet...

In fact, if we're going to argue the audibility of this distortion -

might I call attention to the 2 foot and 7 foot offsets that are going

to have much larger audible effects?

I

don't mean to nitpick and I really don't disagree with any of the

advice, but I think there are things going on that have the wrong

reasons attached.

I might propose the concept that what you're experiencing is

typical to an unfinished room and that the reason the lascala sounds

better is because the HF/MF section is lower to the floor - which is

putting more of the acoustical energy into your couch or whatever is

your current listening position (thus reducing the magnitude of the

reflections in the room). I would also propose that the hollow

sound you hear is the indirect sound being louder than the direct sound

- and the sonic signature was shifted when you toed the speakers in.

Your low frequency performance isn't suffering, but you might have

introduced a wide hole in the ~400Hz range (by introducing the horn

discontinuity at the floor).

Is your room finished? Like is there all sorts of furniture and stuff

throughout the room, or is it pretty much empty right now? I can

imagine that if you're working on the floor, that everything has been

ripped outta the room???

[Deang]

"What I have to compare are my 1981 La Scalas with new Bob Crites AA networks. It seems the La Scalas sound much better at higher volumes than the Khorns with the AK-3s. I dont notice any of the graininess or harshness with the La Scala/AA combination. In fact I prefer my La Scalas, however they dont produce anywhere near the bottom end that the Khorns generate."

When you got the new AK-3's from Bob, did you clean up all the wiring, that old monster cable gets just plain nasty. Check the condition of the washers that sit between the K-55's and the K-401's, in fact, if you haven't done it already, get some replacements from Bob.

The earlier networks are fine as long as you don't get carried away with the volume, the old horns don't handle it well. As Mark found out, and those who've heard the 60th Anniversay Klipschorns -- steep slope filters are beneficial.

[wallflower]

Actually the room, while finished, has a lot of furniture and "stuff" in it. It's already probably absorbing a great deal of the reflections. I'm sure it could be improved upon but it's not like an empty room.

DeanG - Great ideas. I really do need to change out the old wiring. And maybe I do need to go to some ES networks.

Thanks all!

[mas]

"What I have to compare are my 1981 La Scalas with new Bob Crites AA networks. It seems the La Scalas sound much better at higher volumes than the Khorns with the AK-3s. I dont notice any of the graininess or harshness with the La Scala/AA combination. In fact I prefer my La Scalas, however they dont produce anywhere near the bottom end that the Khorns generate."

When you got the new AK-3's from Bob, did you clean up all the wiring, that old monster cable gets just plain nasty. Check the condition of the washers that sit between the K-55's and the K-401's, in fact, if you haven't done it already, get some replacements from Bob.

The earlier networks are fine as long as you don't get carried away with the volume, the old horns don't handle it well. As Mark found out, and those who've heard the 60th Anniversay Klipschorns -- steep slope filters are beneficial.

Translation: Forget the other stuff I neither understand nor appreciate... Its the caps (capacitance)...

[Deang]

Uh, he'd already bought new networks from Bob, I only suggested a couple of things in addition to things already mentioned: The washers that sit between the driver and the horn and the old cable, which if you'd ever seen you'd understand. I didn't say a damn word about caps.

[wallflower]

Update report...

After several more critical listening sessions I want to report that toeing the speakers in has effectively eliminated the harshness I was experiencing with my Khorns. They really do sound like different speakers. There just seems to be more synergy with the system. The imaging is so much more precise and yet without a reduction in the soundstage. I've found I can really enjoy listening to music that I previously thought was totally annoying on the Khorns. I'm also able to listen and enjoy at pretty significant SPL levels. Previously I've never been able to get good piano recordings to sound right on this system, but now they sound excellent. For some reason my piano recordings sound better on the Khorns than on my La Scalas. Any thoughts as to why that might be?

Anyway, things are much improved and I'm very happy. Thanks all for your input!!

Jeff

[mas]

Doc already identified it when he spoke of the soundstage.

Reflections. Comb filtering. Polar lobing. Etc. Etc. Etc.