jubilee

[bodcaw boy]

I'll let the company say it in their own words. Here is a key paragraph from the company history on the current web site:

QUOTE FROM CROWN:

With the implementation of Grounded Bridge circuitry in the ’80s, Crown offered an innovation providing lower distortion, less thermal stress, higher acoustic output, greater reliability, superior power density and audio quality, Grounded Bridge circuitry was integral to the engineering of the Macro-Tech and Micro-Tech amplifier lines.

The 1990s found Crown developing computer-controlled audio systems with the IQ System. In 1997, the company added another new milestone in audio technology with the introduction of the K2 amplifier featuring Balanced Current Amplifier circuitry offering innovative thermal and energy efficiencies.

END QUOTE

So, notice the goals in the first 'graph - "audio quality" is #6 in a long list of exactly what I would imagine their priorities to be. Doesn't mean they don't care what it sounds like, but the "innovation" is all about other things that are important in THAT marketplace for THOSE customers. If a guy has the Rolling Stones bouncing on stage in 2 minutes, he can't be worried if the amp goes all microphonic on him, right? THAT is how those pros make a living, by being sure when Mick grabs a mic it is live!

In the second 'graph the "milestone" of the K2 was innovative thermal and energy efficiencies, not "sound quality." Again, this makes total sense for their market place. Now, if you asked me what MY design priority was for a pCAT, or what Craig's is for a VRD, we would not say, "thermal efficiency" or high acoustic output, or power density, because that would be stupid. My customers don't give a hoot about thermal density! They want.....ta da...."sound quality."

I didn't make it up. That's straight from the horse.

just a minor point....have you even heard them? or are you one of the unheards arguing with the heards? that is a popular sport around here.....

in Christ, because of God's grace,

roy

[bodcaw boy]

The transfer function will show you the difference between input and output (both in FR and phase) and it will do that no matter what signal you feed it... including the Rolling Stones CDs. The greater the difference between input and output the less accurate the amp is to the source.

What is the output impedance of your pCats? Do you really think those are going to show less difference between input/output compared to a low output impedance SS amplifier when connected to a real load with varying impedance.

This reminds me of an interesting experiment I saw posted on diyaudio.com. A fellow first connected a solid state amp, then a single ended triode amp, to a speaker and measured harmonic distortion, comparing distortion levels at the amps' outputs and the distortion in the room. The single ended amp's distortion measured much higher at the output, but somewhat lower in the room, due to cancellation with the speaker's distortion. This result basically blew my mind, but it makes physical sense (and also demonstrates how high speaker distortion can be compared to amp distortion). Be sure to check out part 2, linked at the bottom... it gets even more interesting. link

Of course, this is only a consideration of harmonic distortion, not frequency response, or resolution of transients or anything else, but I do get the impression that many audiophiles value low distortion (and non-objectionable vs. objectionable distortion) over ruler-flat response. Personally, I like having low distortion, high resolution, and natural response whenever possible, but distortion is in my opinion the worse of these evils ;-)

and which "audiophiles" might those be? did you rereead your first post?

in Christ, because of God's grace,

roy

[jon_010101]

Welcome to the fray Jon! Just wanted say that right off. 

Actually, I think the issue is deeper than our knowledge of distortion measurements. If it we're really related to steady state distortion patterns, we'd of had the answer eons ago about designing the "best" amp.

Thanks Mark! This is all very true. A square wave can only say so much. And, while it is often great fun to hear every bit of information extracted from a two-mic stereo recording, I never really enjoy listening to the total accumulated weirdness present in some heavily-processed mixes. ;-)

[bodcaw boy]

Welcome to the fray Jon! Just wanted say that right off.

Actually, I think the issue is deeper than our knowledge of distortion measurements. If it we're really related to steady state distortion patterns, we'd of had the answer eons ago about designing the "best" amp. The problem is that so-called "recording" is a totally unfaithful process. We are not really "capturing" the acoustic event, we are simply translating it from a 3D acoustic event into a 2D electric field that we can write on tape. To make it worse, we don't record what 2 ears would have heard from some point in space, we record what 32 mics hear from 32 points in space. Later, after several more translations, we try to listenin our homes with 2 ears from a point is space, and make judgments about something called "accuracy" - which is preposterous. NO PAIR OF EARS ever heard what the "mix" turns out to be from which the CD or LP is made. The entire process is simply riddled with misunderstanding of what is being done.

You can't compare accuracy of Amp A and Amp B while playing a Rolling Stones CD because the only way to "examine" the contents of the CD is to play it with the Amp in question and hear it with a human ear, and store it in a brain! I challenge anyone to describe for me the objective instrument reading which you make to declare that Amp A has a "more accurate output" than Amp B when the Rolling Stones "Exile on Main Street" is the input.

amazing.....have you ever mixed anything? i am just wondering...........

in Christ, because of God's grace,

roy

[bodcaw boy]

Hmmm, I suspect the engineers at Crown, were not using Rolling Stones CDs as their test signal. Perhaps that was their problem.

Good Luck,

-----------

Exactly right Tom! They are using sine waves and square waves from an oscillator. So, it is a dead certainty to me that if your listening pleasure is a sine wave, or maybe square waves, you ought to purchase the amplifier with the best output when a sine wave is the input! Amen. Now, we understand the pro environment.

i use pink noise.....it has every song ever written or that will be written in it. i am going to open up my krud amps and see if i can find the container in it that has the snake oil.......

in Christ, because of God's grace,

roy

[jon_010101]

and which "audiophiles" might those be?  did you rereead your first post?

"many audiophiles value low distortion...over ruler flat response" is what I said. Some don't, and listen to some pretty weird-sounding systems. And, as we all know, everyone has different tolerance for different kinds of distortion. What I mean is that linear variations in frequency response are usually considered less objectionable than nonlinear distortions. It's a difference between a bit of EQ, and actually adding something that isn't supposed to be there. For example, I'd prefer a slightly-forward treble that was super-clean and undistorted, to a perfectly flat treble response that exhibited ringing and breakup due to nonlinearities of the tweeter.

[bodcaw boy]

and which "audiophiles" might those be? did you rereead your first post?

"many audiophiles value low distortion...over ruler flat response" is what I said. Some don't, and listen to some pretty weird-sounding systems.

those bad people.....we'll learn them!!

And, as we all know, everyone has different tolerance for different kinds of distortion.

hmmmmmm, different kinds or diffent levels??

What I mean is that linear variations in frequency response are usually considered less objectionable than nonlinear distortions. It's a difference between a bit of EQ, and actually adding something that isn't supposed to be there. For example, I'd prefer a slightly-forward treble that was super-clean and undistorted, to a perfectly flat treble response that exhibited ringing and breakup due to nonlinearities of the tweeter.

so why then do you bring up distortions when you yourself prefer just a slightly forward treble? isn't that distortion? "accuracy" is the term that is being bantied around here, i believe, as the holy grail or maybe not. and just out of curiousity, have you ever adjusted "a little eq" when all the other trivial items associated with sound have been tamed into a cage? it makes a whole alot more difference than you let on to......oh well.....back to my pink noise and my non-audiosilly amps.

in Christ, because of God's grace.

roy

[bodcaw boy]

"There's too much shorthand being tossed in here. 'Accuracy' for audiophiles probably doesn't mean what it does for technophiles (I just used that name to make the distinction of the arguments - don't attach anything to it.). If we are using a distortion analyser and test gear, the most accurate amp is the one with the lowest tested distortion on the instruments. No disagreement there. Your SuperTECH1000 might be 0.0001% THD and XYZ tube amp might be 1% THD. You win. You have the more acccurate amp in that regard.

Now, a person like me tries the two amps themselves. They listen to the music they have had for many years. After some time, they say, "SuperTECH 1000 doesn't sound musical at all. It is dry, lifeless and irritating. I want to shut it off. XYZ sounds lively, clear and spacious - just like when I hear real music. I want to play more and more because this sounds more "accurately" how I remember music sounding when I hear it live." We can argue that one or the other is misusing the word accuracy. But that's silly, because it doesn't address the meaning of either comment."

OHHHHHHHHHHH!!! it's THAT "accuracy" you are talking about......

in Christ, because of God's grace,

roy

[PrestonTom]

Goodness, the blasphemy of Dr Who is spreading like wildfire. Now Roy and Shawn have become heretics.

However I have learned a number of things: 1) only sine waves have distortion, 2) in spite of the fact that crossover distortion has been recognized for years, engineers have been unable to tackle this in their design efforts, 3) accuracy can not be measured because sine waves and square waves have nothing to do with music, 4) transfer functions should be ignored, 6) the only distortion we should recognize is harmonic, steady-state distortion, 7) there exists a group of chosen folks who can hear things that others can not hear, 8) the terms: "distortion, accuracy, resolution, linear or non-linear" are all fun words and we can use them anyway we want, and 9) the list continues...

There is only one way to conquer this blasphemy: all scientists and engineers should be rounded up so they can be re-indoctrinated. BTW, Is Dr Who out of purgatory yet?

Good Luck,

Reverend Tom

In a rare moment of seriousness. We will not convince one another of our different positions, because we do not share a common set of assumptions.

[jon_010101]

so why then do you bring up distortions when you yourself prefer just a slightly forward treble?  isn't that distortion?  "accuracy" is the term that is being bantied around here, i believe, as the holy grail or maybe not.  and just out of curiousity, have you ever adjusted "a little eq" when all the other trivial items associated with sound have been tamed into a cage?  it makes a whole alot more difference than you let on to......oh well.....back to my pink noise and my non-audiosilly amps.

Hi Roy, This is only a disagreement of language here, and it's really my fault -- When I say distortion, I mean to say "nonlinear distortion", i.e., added stuff that isn't supposed to be there. This is different than just boosting the level of the high frequencies relative to the low frequencies, which is easily reversible. Frankly, I don't prefer a forward treble, but I'd much rather that than a distorted treble. My complaint of monster PA solid-state amps is that they are optimized for low distortion at very high output levels. I generally listen to music at lower levels through relatively efficient speakers, and prefer an amplifier optimized for low distortion at low output levels. There are many technical reasons for this, which are measurable in addition to audible. So, I was simply trying to make a counter-argument to DrWho in objective terms, rather than subjective description.

[jon_010101]

2) in spite of the fact that crossover distortion has been recognized for years, engineers have been unable to tackle this in their design efforts

Oh it can be, and often is... but it takes money, good parts selection, and engineering effort, which is usually saved for amps well beyond "klub" status. ;-)

A note... not just "klub" amps are guilty. Here's a very expensive audiophile amp that's looking pretty guilty LINK.

[Marvel]

2) in spite of the fact that crossover distortion has been recognized for years, engineers have been unable to tackle this in their design efforts

Oh it can be, and often is... but it takes money, good parts selection, and engineering effort, which is usually saved for amps well beyond "klub" status. ;-)

Methinks shawn should have put in a smiley...

I have some great engineer jokes...

Two engineering students were walking across a university campus when one said: "Where did you get such a great bike?"

The second engineering student replied, "Well, I was walking along yesterday, minding my own business when a beautiful woman rode up on this bike, threw it in the ground, took off all her clothes and said. "Take what you want.""

The first engineering student nodded approvingly and said, "Good choice. The clothes probably wouldn't have fit you anyway."

[jon_010101]

Two engineering students were walking across a university campus when one said: "Where did you get such a great bike?"

That is, by far, my favorite engineer joke of all-time :-)

[sfogg]

"There's too much shorthand being tossed in here. 'Accuracy' for audiophiles probably doesn't mean what it does for technophiles (I just used that name to make the distinction of the arguments - don't attach anything to it.)."

You were talking about objective accuracy above (you flat out called it that) which is what I based my comments on. And the excuses given in the CD/vinyl, tube/SS, SET/PP are all objective types of accuracy... less crossover distortion, even order distortions...etc...etc.

"If we are using a distortion analyser and test gear, the most accurate amp is the one with the lowest tested distortion on the instruments. No disagreement there."

The test I suggested shows far more then just one arbitrary number for distortion and show much more then just distortion. You are the one that wanted an objective test for accuracy between two amps on real music. I gave you one.

"I think your belief is that accuracy can be bounded by what we can measure with an instrument today, and that ultimately that WILL correlate to some good experience to the listener."

You are wrong. There is no measurement that measures 'taste.' You could find someone that loves the sound of 7th order distortion. I had said this dozens of times here. Please don't put words in my mouth.

My argument is that many audiophiles can't handle that what they prefer may or may not be accurate. Your trying to redefine the definition of 'accuracy' backs that up. IMO audiophiles are an insecure lot generally.... many can't trust their own opinion and need backup in the for of Stereofool lists or whatever.

"which means THD up to 1% might be as meaningless as the color of the LEDs on the panel, in the larger scheme of what people enjoy listening to. "

I have zero doubt that some audiophiles would 'hear' things differently depending upon the color of the LEDs on the front panel. Some people hear an amplifier with a silver front panel as warmer then the exact same amplifier with a black face panel. I think one amp manufacturer even went so far as to always send a specific Stereophile reviewer silver face plates to avoid the 'dark sounding' reviews.

Not everything one 'hears' in audio land is based on their ears.

Tubes are warm/liquid, SS is gritty harsh, horns honk...etc...etc..

"What should we call the "unfaithfulness" of sound which develops when a component simply doesn't sound like music?"

That it isn't their subjective preference, nothing more. Without measurements they have no idea on if it is accurate or not. They simply don't like it. Most have no clue what the original sounded like, they just base that on what they think it would sound like or what they would like it to sound like.

"The question still remains, "what is each individual trying to perceive when they are listening?""

Usually their own preference. They then just have to try and convince themselves that it is 'accurate' simply because of the audiophile neurosis that liking anything that isn't accurate is taboo.

"pCAT output impedance is about 1.5Ω. "

Thanks, is that pretty consistent over the whole bandwidth?

Shawn

[NOSValves]

Boy am I glad I was side tracked away from this thread... The Technofreaks are out in force....

Mark I wish you luck....

Craig

[DrWho]

"The test I suggested shows far more then just one arbitrary number for
distortion and show much more then just distortion. You are the one
that wanted an objective test for accuracy between two amps on real
music. I gave you one."

---------

No. Actually you didn't. You gave me a suggestion it can be done. Which two amps did you run this test on, and what was the data, and conclusions you drew from the data?

For what it's worth, I've done the exact test that Shawn is talking about...on many occasions. In fact, right now we're building an amp for one of my labs and we've been using this test with the amp connected to various loads (resistors and speakers and whatever). The data is only as valuable as one's understanding of the testing process and the system as a whole.

[bodcaw boy]

Boy am I glad I was side tracked away from this thread... The Technofreaks are out in force....

Mark I wish you luck....

Craig

ladies and gentlemen and you too doc,

an unheard.

in Christ, because of God's grace,

roy

[bodcaw boy]

"So far, at least 3 people have claimed they know how to objectively determine accuracy regarding amplifiers, and yet, not a single piece of data from these tests have showed up. "

I KNOW......i am waiting on you.... or as usual are you just full of "accurate" air?

in Christ, because of God's grace,

roy

[bodcaw boy]

"People ridicule audiophiles for having good aural perception, and yet the people laughing are supposedly "involved (that does include you right?)" in the music part of this hobby."

actually no. i take offense at those who think they are audiophiles, can arbitrarily spill their snake oil, slither around from where they started at and then try to come out as if they knew what they were talking about. all this was started because you and your infinite wisdom know a whole alot better about "accuracy (which equates to being an audiophile - that's what i learned from your ever humble wisdom)" and attempted to school someone. sorry ain't buying it today......but there is always tomorrow....

measurements aren't everything....but it sures does help to get stupid opinions out of the way....but some are just very reluctant to give them opinions up!! i can take " i like tubes amps and i don't like pro amps" but when you "attempt" to justify it and put down others that don't feel like you (and oh by the way, just cause it's your opinion, doesn't make it a fact), you are stepping out on a very very slim branch........now where's that chainsaw.....

in Christ, because of God's grace,

roy

[ZAKO]

Boy oh boy !!! what a bunch of loony squirts...Papa buys you the books sends you to school what do you do but eat the covers...You cant observe the accuracy of the amps without compairing it to the origional LIVE source...That is the ultimate test...And I do it at the studio with live musicions then objectively switch back to moniters and amps.....Do you want to know something interesting?? Nothing ,,I mean absolutely nothing has ever came close to that LIVE event.....And ive been doing this for over 50 years.... All the test equipment,, amps.. speakers,,, Anechoic chambers,,charts,, NONE have ever come close,,, Weather listening to a single flute or a full 70 piece orchestra...( I do this three times a week) And you guys are looking for accuracy and low distortion in an amp or speaker???? Jesus Christ !!! your not going to find it here on this planet. ROY don,t waite too long.