jubilee

[Deang]

One of the things I noted about your configuration was the highs were starting to roll off around ~8kHz-ish.

Not according to the measurements.

[rigma]

300 watts of Crown D150A (strapped in Mono)

Yikes, don't bridge amps if you're looking for clarity I actually tried it both ways and yes you are correct.

As for the active crossovers....were you able to saturate their inputs? I set the inputs so all lights would flash on the peaks. The pro gear is going to require a larger voltage than most home gear operates on, so your preamp would likely need to be cranked up all the way in order to get "a lot of blinky lights" on the input panels. After that, you'll need to attenuate the output way down yes I did that in the digital domain in the Crown but that way not have been the way it should have been don after reading what Shawn and others have written. since your amplifiers probably don't need large voltages to reach their max output either. Right, they are actually sensitive.

In other words, I think you would benefit greatly from an active crossover that was designed to operate at the voltages and impedances of home audio equipment. I think the DEQX might fit into this category. It is just a lot to spend only to find out doesn't suite me. Just looking to hear from ones that have used the DEQX with similar equipment.

[rigma]

The part that is lacking with our system was the drums of Paul Motian, especially the impact of hard cymball strikes. I would like to get that attack and decay to sound more live in our room!

There is a lot of high frequency energy in the upper registers of hhard cymball strikes. One of the things I noted about your configuration was the highs were starting to roll off around ~8kHz-ish. Honestly, I don't hear any roll off now like I did with the active and SS. That is much of what I like better about my current setup. Of course I am 55 so who knows. My measurements with my RTA don't show that either.I'm not sure if it's a function of the passives or the amps (possibly both), but I would look to see if you couldn't make any modifications to achieve a more extended high frequency response. The thing you want to be looking for is a capacitance in parallel with the circuit (which might actually be in the tubes you're using...)

I have also found that sometimes slightly rolled off highs can be perceived as a smoother midrange, which is something I've played with in the studio. I've never actually played with it in a home setting, but I would imagine the effect would be the same. I bring this up because I think, for you, there's going to be a tradeoff involved (smooth mids versus cymbal impact).

[rigma]

It is not that I think anything is wrong with my setup its is just that I
have never heard this "elusive realism" out of any system. Even the Jubilees with
the Crown XTi. or any other for that matter. I probably am searching for
something that currently is not obtainable, but that is how we progress to the
next level.

rigma

[anarchist]

Filet mignon, based on established measurable criteria, is the best cut of meat. I choose skirt steak whenever possible. In fine restaurants, I order filet mignon.

Taking an AB/X test, I attempt to differentiate between two steaks. Statistically, based on the results of the test, there is no difference between flank steak and skirt steak.

When eating a prepared meal, my children can always identify skirt steak. They always ask for more chicken.

[jacksonbart]

.

[DrWho]

One of the things I noted about your configuration was the highs were starting to roll off around ~8kHz-ish.

Not according to the measurements.

I'm looking at the measurements right now and Roy's passives with his QSC amps show less output from 4k-8k (~2dB) and a lot less output above 13kHz (~10dB). Describing it as a "roll off around 8kHz-ish" is probably over simplified, but there is absolutely no doubt that there will be drastic differences in the percieved voicing.

I brought it up because I've found that similar EQ changes in the studio yield very similar results to what is being described.

[jwc]

I agree with Who on the "percieved" roll off. But I'm all over the idea of trying another driver Rigma. The 402 and K69 combo is a winner but I would be interested in hearing another driver.

My McIntosh SS amp MC252 on My La scala II's has some serious slap/thwach to it. The MC275 tube amp has some magic about it that is a little more desirable. Not quite as much impact though. I can't really put it into words....I need more listening. I may try out the Crown XTI for giggles one day

But I can relate to some of what you folks are describing on the crown. Have to weigh in on what is important to you. So I guess we need to find out what brings the best of both worlds......probably involves money[]

jc

[mikebse2a3]

The part that is lacking with our system was the drums of Paul Motian, especially the impact of hard cymball strikes. I would like to get that attack and decay to sound more live in our room! Even though we think our system is the best we have ever had, or heard, I feel this is an area that could be improved. Maybe it is a room issue, better drivers or electronics etc. or I wonder even if it is recording related, which I suspect is the most likely?

Of course all the above plays a part in determining the reproduction we acheive.

Don't underestimate the room's influence when it comes to the drums and cymbal reproduction.

In the past I had a set of Yamaha drums with Zildjian cymbals in the same room with my Klipschorns. This was by far the best room I ever had my system in and let me tell you the KHorns could really impress someone with how close they could sound to the real thing. I use to have a good friend come over and I would play a very good drum recording with a drum track and have my friend play the same thing and I never had anyone walk away unimpressed with what they had just heard.

Anyway what I wanted to really mention was I could take this drum kit and move it just a few feet in the room and I would have to retune the drums for their new location which just goes to show how much the room influenced the sound of the Real Drums and my point is the Loudspeaker's reproduction is influenced even more dramatically by the room's qualities. So again I would emphasize that the weakest link and most neglected to reproduction in the home is the Room and swapping or adding equipment(this assumes reasonably good equipment Tube or Solid State) will not bring about improvements to that reproduction like dealing with the room-setup issues.

mike tn[]

[Deang]

The drum kit work on the Stereophile Test CD's sound pretty realistic, especially the cymbals. Can't discount the room for sure, but I think it has mostly to do with how things are mixed.

So Mark, less detail with the Crowns -- what are you trying to say exactly, that the Crowns are warmer than the tubes you had?

[mark1101]

Well, now I have the Crown DSP running. I should have waited until I began to use the DSP in the Crowns and the CORRECT SETTINGS before making some of the previous comments. The proper EQ brought about a big improvement in clarity and top end detail. Honestly now......I am not sure I had more detail in my old system at all. I may not have. I'll know more when I get around to testing against my LaScalas.....which has always been my reference. At this point I'm very surprised at what the Crowns can do. Sorry for any confusion. I did not have the proper EQ settings and my previous comments were relevant to something not being exactly right. I did not know what it was though besides less clarity and top end detail. As it turns out it was a lot of harsh junk that was supposed to be EQ'd out.

[jwc]

Mark. I would love to come to your place and hear this monster. I'm very jealous of you and Claude.

You need to add ""Crown, Active and Horns"" to your signature like others. Seriously.....not being a smartA$$. This concept seems to be new winner...and cost effective. Bill H. of all people needs to do it too!

jc

[mark1101]

I don't honestly know if the Crown w/DSP sounds better than using the outboard Behringer. I just know that I had the Behringer set wrong and it did not seem to have enough memory to do all the EQ required. The Crown PC software is very good and allows interaction in real time. I really like it. Oh.....and it does wonders for the sound when you set the settings correctly. JC and anyone interested is welcome to come for a Klipsch visit to hear this stuff. I apologize for some recent posts that were based on an incorrectly configured system.

[Deang]

Wait till you set up and have a half dozen presets that you can choose from for the different kinds of recordings you have or for different volume levels. It would really be hard for me to go back at this point -- losing the control would annoy the crap out of me.

[BEC]

Wait till you set up and have a half dozen presets that you can choose from for the different kinds of recordings you have or for different volume levels. It would really be hard for me to go back at this point -- losing the control would annoy the crap out of me.

I knew a guy like that one time back in the 70s. He marked bass and treble settings on all his albums. Most of those settings ended up getting marked out an rewritten several times. Last I knew, he had sold all his gear and totally given up on music.

Bob

[jwc]

"......and soon to go Sony 9000ES....."

Dean! Are you selling the Sony CD Player to get either a Tascam CD Player or iPod?

jc

[Arky]

Bob..takes a shot...scores.[]

[Deang]

Dean! Are you selling the Sony CD Player to get either a Tascam CD Player or iPod?

The problem with the iPod is that I'd have to put the Jubilees on casters so I could get around. What's wrong with Tascam, looks O.K. to me.

Right now, my short list is comprised of the The NAD T-585 and Parasound D200.

[Deang]

I knew a guy like that one time back in the 70s. He marked bass and treble settings on all his albums. Most of those settings ended up getting marked out an rewritten several times. Last I knew, he had sold all his gear and totally given up on music.

I guess it's good that I don't have any albums.

[sunnysal]

Rigma,

the DEQx was very transparent, I could not detect any audible negative effects of placing it in the chain. However, it has a steep learning curve, you really have to study and tweak if you plan to get the best out of it.

what it does is wonderful from an audio perfectionist perspective; FIR analysis and adjustments so that all drivers are aligend in time/phase and allows you have control over where and how steep you cross over each driver, it also has room correction and EQ functionality that is very advanced, dare I say state of the art..

I abandonded the project not because the sound wasnt great, it was, but because I wanted a simpler system, one my two young daughters could operate and that looked better in the room decor. the need to use three amplifiers, a virtual nest of wires and the add on tweeter (a jbl 2404H) just was too much for me to stand.

I suppose you could use the DEQx in a simple stereo system (not triamped) and get significant benefits from the DEQx, in fact after I took down my monster system and reverted I "lent" (looking kind of permanent this lending I did) the DEQx unit to a friend who uses it in a straight stereo system and is very pleased with the results it gives as a simple preamp with room correction (simple, hah!) and EQ box.

If you have the scratch rigma it is an exciting product to play with. I think it will, at least, decide for you if a full house active system is better than a simple purist system.

warm regards from sunny el salvador,

tony