RFP Posted December 29, 2007 Share Posted December 29, 2007 Perhaps this really belongs in the 'Architectural' section, but if you will permit, I'll go ahead and post it here... Our main 'Music Room' (that's the one with only the 'big rig' Klipschorn / tubes system and linda's piano) started life as a living room / dining room. Several years ago, we decided to turn it into a dedicated Music Room. After considerable effort (some of which may even have been as effective as it was well-intentioned), we are mostly done! These were our considerations and constraints... (1) little knowledge of 'room acoustics,' (2) a limit to the amount of funds we were willing to put into 'room treatments,' (3) wanting the end result to compliment the rest of our home's decor. Since the room was 'open' to the entry hall, the first thing I had to do was to build a wall. I constructed this wall (seen in the photos as the one with the double doors) with two 'layers' of 3/4" plywood faced with 1/2" sheetrock... this formed a super-rigid wall for (one side) of the Klipschorns. It also provided 'perfect' corners. With the Klipschorns and the [one-and-only] listening chair in place, we 'walked the room,' mirror flat along the wall(s) and put up heavy drapes everywhere that the speakers could be 'seen in the mirror' from the listening chair. Likewise, the entire back wall was draped with identical drapes. The drapes are a heavy 'linen look' material, fully lined, and full enough to provide dense 'folds' (all the better to diffuse, thinks we). In one of the the back corners, I custom-made a curved 'drapery rod' which allowed me to curve the drapes - resulting in an area in which to 'stack' sound absorbent material... in our case ROXUL 60 ( http://www.roxul.com/graphics/RX-NA/Canada/Product%20Literature/Tech%20Data/RockBoard60-8-7-07.pdf ). In this back-corner-bass-trap there is some 32 cubic feet of Roxul 60. Above and behind both Klipschorns, I built the curved absorbers that I have already discussed in a previous thread ( http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/91939/947930.aspx#947930 ). The floor is Saltillo tile - exactly like the floor in every Mexican restaurant you ever visited! We laid a large 'area rug' over the tile in front of the listening chair. The results are most satisfying. We feel that the room serves its purpose very well - both for music reproduction and music creation. It 'blends' well with the rest of the house. I am 100% sure that the room is full of compromises and probably much could be done to make it even better... but it is what it is, and we really, really like it! I must give credit to many on this forum for their ideas and the postings of their own experience... no amount of 'dumb luck' could have resulted in a Music Room with which we are so pleased. So... Thanks, to all... and when you are in ther Fort Worth area, look me up, we'll listen to some tunes! Front wall with 'double doors'... Draped side walls... Back corner 'bass trap'... Above-the-speakers absorbers... Area rug between speakers and 'listening chair'... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted December 29, 2007 Share Posted December 29, 2007 Nice work! We have a piano (Yamaha P-22 studio upright) in the room with our Klipschorns as well. I've often wondered if playing music through the speakers would make the strings vibrate in any type of annoying way. The piano is a little heavy to move out of the room for an experiment. Maybe there's a way to damp the strings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted December 29, 2007 Share Posted December 29, 2007 Maybe there's a way to damp the strings? Rope Caulk! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFP Posted December 29, 2007 Author Share Posted December 29, 2007 You have a beautiful room. Thanks for posting all those pictures. Did you use any instrumentation or software to make acoustical measurements of your room? If so, which ones? mdeneen... Great question, thanks for bringing it up! I should have talked about this topic in my posting. Nope, there was no 'science' whatsoever applied to this enterprise... just my tired old sixty-eight year old ears (OK, how reliable could that be?). You know, as I think about it, I'm really not at all eager to do any 'instrumentation' analysis... I'm fearful that I may find out that what sounds really, really good to me right now may be flawed... and (shudder at the thought) need MORE room treatment. But, seriously, I have paid really close attention to the postings of others and understand just a tiny bit about the effects all these things have on a room... my room in particular. Have a great what's-left-of-the-weekend! [] Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFP Posted December 29, 2007 Author Share Posted December 29, 2007 Nice work! We have a piano (Yamaha P-22 studio upright) in the room with our Klipschorns as well. I've often wondered if playing music through the speakers would make the strings vibrate in any type of annoying way. The piano is a little heavy to move out of the room for an experiment. Maybe there's a way to damp the strings? Thanks, fini, for the kind words! The piano is a Yamaha C7 Conservatory Grand... a truly wonderful instrument! You know, as strange as it may seem, we can detect no 'vibrating' of the strings at all. As a matter of fact, the conga drums don't seem to be 'ringing' either... [:^)] Cheerz, Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkrop Posted December 29, 2007 Share Posted December 29, 2007 Nice work! We have a piano (Yamaha P-22 studio upright) in the room with our Klipschorns as well. I've often wondered if playing music through the speakers would make the strings vibrate in any type of annoying way. The piano is a little heavy to move out of the room for an experiment. Maybe there's a way to damp the strings? Garden hose?[] BTW Great Room! What is the finish on those K-horns? I can't tell from the pics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted December 29, 2007 Share Posted December 29, 2007 fini, You need to look at the technology in a modern acoustic piano. The strings are dampened when there are no keys depressed. When you strike/depress a key, it lifts a damper off the string while it is being struck. If, for example, you make a G chord and hold the keys down, it will continue to ring/sustain. If you let up on the keys, the strings become muted. There is a slight bit of the note there, but very slight. Using one of the pedals, you can have the chord sustain after you remove your hand from the keyboard. You can try this and see/hear just how must the strings continue to vibrate after you strike the note/chord, removing your hand. Part of it has to do with the quality of the piano, wear on the felts, etc. It is possible to reach into a piano and pluck the strings and hear the notes, but they should be somewhat muted. You might have to play your Khorn extremely loud to get the strings to vibrate with sympathetic vibrations, i.e., an A through the stereo would make the A strings vibrate. This is readily apparent on a guitar, especially on an A, as the tops are usually tuned to an A. A piano soundboard is a bit stiffer than a guitar top. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFP Posted December 29, 2007 Author Share Posted December 29, 2007 BTW Great Room! What is the finish on those K-horns? I can't tell from the pics. Thanks a million, bkrop... The Klipschorns are finished in General Finishes 'Nutmeg' gel stain (five coats) with the General Finishes 'satin' urethane top coat (six coats). The tops are 'protected' by glass (profound overkill, indeed). Better photos of the finish are here: http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/86860/875273.aspx#875273 I did a thread on the "re-construction" of these Klipschorns... if interested, you can see it here: http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/85067/855322.aspx#855322 All the best to you! Rob And here: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted December 29, 2007 Share Posted December 29, 2007 Boy, do I feel dumb...heh, what's new? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted December 29, 2007 Share Posted December 29, 2007 You know, as I think about it, I'm really not at all eager to do any 'instrumentation' analysis... I'm fearful that I may find out that what sounds really, really good to me right now may be flawed... and (shudder at the thought) need MORE room treatment. Yikes! That's not how measurements work! If you like the sound now, measurements would just let you know what it is you like. How in the world can a measurement tell you something sounds bad when it clearly sounds good to you?!? If a measurement doesn't correlate to perception, then you are incorrectly interpreting the measurement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted December 30, 2007 Moderators Share Posted December 30, 2007 Very nice looking room, can you explain a little about how it sounds different to you, or was it not used for music before the treatments ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 That " Front wall with 'double doors'... " pic with the bass traps on top of the khorns could be an easy way of easing the wife into some jubilee's.......LOL Great approach to all the sound dynamic's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Beautiful!! Great work, great layout!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted December 30, 2007 Moderators Share Posted December 30, 2007 When is your wife performing again? We missed her concert a year or so ago and I have been meaning to ask you when we might catch a performance. Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Very well done!!! I love the wraparound drapes that cover the corner bass trap! It is a wonderful way to make a potentially 'intrusive' addition virtually disappear. I am curious to know you thoughts on whether or not it is apparent without really focusing on it? My experience is that they tend to disappear into the room as we all 'know' how corners work, and thus it tends to disappear from focus. And the L shaped room allows for greater diffusion and a sense of space with the corner trap soaking up the LF boominess - especially when you are located in the corner near the piano - with the added benefit of helping the room response when performing on the piano as well. Again, very well done! A great example of combining acoustical improvement with utility! [Y] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFP Posted December 30, 2007 Author Share Posted December 30, 2007 Very nice looking room, can you explain a little about how it sounds different to you, or was it not used for music before the treatments ? Thanks, dtel... I appreciate your kind comments!Actually, this room 'project' went on for so darned long - some seven years - it's really hard to remember the perceived improvements as drapes were added (incrementally, I might add) and the area rug put down. I can speak to the effects of the little curved 'absorbers' over each Klipschorn and the one-and-only back-wall 'bass trap.'The curved absorbers made quite noticeable improvements in overall detail as well as improved imaging (and any improvements to imaging were welcome inasmuch as the listening chair is actually farther from the speakers than would be ideal). Also, very complicated or 'congested' passages seem to be noticeably cleaner with individual instruments being, well... more 'individual.'The thirty-two cubic feet of ROXUL 60 in the back corner made an improvement, which is not as noticeable but is discernable nonetheless. What the bass trap did was to improve the definition of [what I would call] the mid-bass. I hear things now that were apparently 'masked' before by lower tones.All in all it was certainly worth my time and the cost (don't ask, I have no idea!).Happy New Year! Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFP Posted December 30, 2007 Author Share Posted December 30, 2007 When is your wife performing again? We missed her concert a year or so ago and I have been meaning to ask you when we might catch a performance. Travis Hi Travis… Well, most everything that she’s done since we ‘talked’ last has been private ‘dos’ and accompaniments. I don’t even get to go to the private hoo-has, and the accompanying gigs are not worth the trip from Austin (sometimes not even worth the trip from my den! [] ).Happy New Year, Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFP Posted January 1, 2008 Author Share Posted January 1, 2008 fini, You need to look at the technology in a modern acoustic piano. The strings are dampened when there are no keys depressed. When you strike/depress a key, it lifts a damper off the string while it is being struck. If, for example, you make a G chord and hold the keys down, it will continue to ring/sustain. If you let up on the keys, the strings become muted. There is a slight bit of the note there, but very slight. Using one of the pedals, you can have the chord sustain after you remove your hand from the keyboard. Bruce Right-O, Bruce... good explanation! The 'damper pedal' on a piano (that's the pedal on the far right) manipulates the string dampers exactly as you describe; and if one listens very closely, a very slight sound can be heard from the damper [pedal] mechansim as the pedal is pressed and as it is released. This sound, audible (albeit barely!) in even pianos of the very highest quality is a soft "sssshhhhhhh" sound. If you listen very closely to the first little bit of "I'm Through With Love" on Diana Krall's All For You album (Impulse recording IMPD-182), you can hear the gentle "ssshhhh" of the damper pedal as she plays the introduction. And, of course, this is just this kind of detail that's the reason we love Klipsch! Well, that and the screaming 104 db/watt glories! All the best for a great New Year to all! Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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