Guest " " Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 "The K400 is kind of closed in sounding with a sort of shouty megaphone quality to it. The K510 is a more natural open sounding horn." I have a pair of k510's with options to use the 1132 or the k69. Also have the k-703 with k-70-g. While I agree the highs are better and most of the mid range is better. My take is the the area where the k-400 shines is the lower mid range and in that area the k-510 is not better to me. I heard the k-402 and did not feel the lower mid range presence there either. Sure with EQ you can add emphasis where ever you want. I think the K-510 is just too short to get real lower mid range out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted February 1, 2008 Author Share Posted February 1, 2008 Isn't the Jubilee crossed over around 8-900Hz in most cases? Would a La Scala bass bin with K-33 work well as high as that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Jubilee 3 way is crossed over at 400hz. The folks using jubs as 2 ways are EQ'ing to be at 500hz. The LaScala bass bin can do that easily. Keep in mind, the Jubilee core is a LaScala bass bin with one less fold. The extra fold improves the lower end, but does not help the higher end at all. KPT-Jubilee® 535 Specifications FREQUENCY RESPONSE 45Hz-19kHz +/- 3dB-10dB @ 34Hz SENSITIVITY 105dB CROSSOVER FREQUENCY 400 Hz, 3k Hz 24dB/Octave COVERAGE ANGLE Horizontal 90° +/-20° 200Hz-18kHz Vertical 60° +/-20° 500Hz-19kHz HIGH FREQUENCY HORN KPT-Grand-HF-T MID FREQUENCY HORN KPT-402-MF WOOFER KPT-KHJ-LF DIMENSIONS 78.3" (199cm) H x 98.6" (250cm) W x 57.3" (146cm) D WEIGHT 329 lbs (149 kg) FEATURES Delay: LF: 0 ms MF: 3.5 ms HF: 4.6 ms Tags: Pr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 I presumed that would be similar to listening to what DocWho calls the power response? Or can you only be listening to the power response from outside the same room the speakers are in? The power response comes into play when the sounds bounces off all the walls in the room and ends up at the listening position. In other words, the level of audibility will be dependant upon the acoustics of the room. Another factor that hasn't been brought up is the actual Q of the polar response. Somewhere the polars for the 402 were posted...notice how at some frequencies the front of the wave is flat on-axis where at other frequencies it is more "pointed" (but still round). Basically, even though the main lobe might be 90x60 or whatever it is, it's still possible for the shape of the 90x60 lobe to be different. And since we have two ears, we will perceive that difference...or least that's what I've read. Roy has also hinted at the notion of ideal Q's a few times in the past as well (I think they were mostly during face-to-face conversations). It's something I would like to hear for myself, but it isn't exactly easy to arbitrarily change the Q and maintain the same polars while keeping distortion to the same levels... I'll see if I can't dig up a PDF or scan the page of the book that shows different Q's with the same polar response. Pictures are so much easier to understand than too many words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Al's crossover won't work with the K69/K510. The crossover needs a shelving filter because the K510 does not trade dispersion for EQ, so you need to compensate for the mass rolloff in the driver. Shawn, not that I recommend this route....but why can't he use the AP 12 or ESN network and use a parametric EQ unit. Then just one amp. For starters, a parametric EQ won't provide a minimum phase solution... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Hey Islander, Seems we've been going way crazy off-topic and the other day I was thinking about the K402 on its side... Although I don't think it's ideal, I would wager that it would still be an improvement over the K400/K77 combo. Maybe you can get one of the guys with the 402 to turn it on its side and report back on how dramatic the difference is? I know it'd be a hassle, but that's what forums are for [] (easy for me to say since I don't have one to do myself). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 For starters, a parametric EQ won't provide a minimum phase solution... OK Who...what else? Islander, I would bet that Roy would help you if you go either route (K402 or K510). I'm willing to bet that the scala bass bin with a modern day Klipsch top horn will be a popular combination. I don't want to speak for him by any means. But I would love to see a passive for the K510/K69 on the scala. There are folks on here that might put one together for you or we can help you through it if a passive become available. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 "I think the K-510 is just too short to get real lower mid range out of it......The folks using jubs as 2 ways are EQ'ing to be at 500hz." The K510 hits 500hz all on its own without need of any EQ. The marker there is at 500hz. To go down to 400hz it would need some EQ. The K400 loads lower then the K510. The K402 loads lower as well. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Doc, "Seems we've been going way crazy off-topic and the other day I was thinking about the K402 on its side... Although I don't think it's ideal, I would wager that it would still be an improvement over the K400/K77 combo" Ifone was going to do that though I think the K510 might be a betteroption. The K402 on its side would have too much vertical dispersionand maybe not enough horizontal. The K510 wouldn't have the patterncontrol of the K402 down low (but a flipped K402 sort of wouldn'teither since the vertical would get so wide) but would have bettervertical control higher up since it would narrow it while the flippedK402 would stay wide vertically.Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Maybe you can get one of the guys with the 402 to turn it on its side and report back on how dramatic the difference is? If you promise to back me up (when my wife thinks I'm nuts & tries to have me committed) I'll just spend an afternoon with my head cocked over 90 degrees and tell you if I hear anything different... would that help? [*-)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted February 1, 2008 Author Share Posted February 1, 2008 It's good to see we're getting back to the original question. Coytee, your offer is appreciated, but to get the full effect, along with tilting your head, you'd need to tilt the room so the 402 horn is interacting with the ceiling, floor and walls in the vertical mode to see if you could hear the difference. There's bound to be a difference, but is it huge or miniscule? On-axis, does a horizontal 510 horn sound as good as, or maybe even better, than a vertical 402 horn in a typical-sized room with an 8-foot ceiling at a listening distance of 13 feet? That's about as specific as I can be. Thanks for all the input so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted February 1, 2008 Author Share Posted February 1, 2008 This posting was unformattable, so I re-tried it and that is the next post. I'll be glad when this issue gets resolved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted February 1, 2008 Author Share Posted February 1, 2008 jwcullison wrote: Islander, I would bet that Roy would help you if you go either route (K402 or K510). I'm willing to bet that the scala bass bin with a modern day Klipsch top horn will be a popular combination. I don't want to speak for him by any means. But I would love to see a passive for the K510/K69 on the scala. There are folks on here that might put one together for you or we can help you through it if a passive become available. If I go ahead with this and it sounds good and is affordable, it's an idea that could appeal to a number of people. If there was enough interest, meaning hundreds at least, it's imaginable that Klipsch could make a horn/driver/crossover combo available, but the demand would have to be there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Islander. This concept of using the K402 and the K510 in the home is fairly new. Richard (Coytee) was one of the first to get a K402 in his ho. That was just 1 1/2 years ago. There won't be a welath of experience from forum members comparing the K402 vs the K510. Sfogg has K510's and so do I. I think they are great. Sfogg like them...not sure if his had heard a K402. I have. So theoretically....I guess the K510 could sound "similar" to the K402 on axis. My experience.......grossly with horns is that the bigger horns are more appealing. Don't expect me to give any science with that. My guess would be that klipsch won't be offereing what you are suggesting anytime soon. Roy is nice to scratch up some schematics for us die hards to use the products on the Cinema line. maybe eventually one will come up for the K510 or 402 on the scala. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blvdre Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 I would certainly be interested in a passive design for the k-510/ La Scala as well. A schematic would suffice, and I wouldn't mind shelling out for a well thought out design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Or get Martinelli to make a large wood copy of the first Tracktrix horn like the one in the Paul Klipsch/Jubilee photo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Or get Martinelli to make a large wood copy of the first Tracktrix horn like the one in the Paul Klipsch/Jubilee photo. If you're willing to go outside the Klipsch line ... http://www.electrovoice.com/download_document.php?doc=1669 http://www.electrovoice.com/download_document.php?doc=1672 http://www.electrovoice.com/download_document.php?doc=1681 These are all in the ballpark to fit the width of the La Scala bass section. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 For starters, a parametric EQ won't provide a minimum phase solution... OK Who...what else? lol, I woulda thought that alone was enough not to persue it [] The other problem is it'd be hard to find a unit with enough filters without going digital or spending a lot of money...if you're gonna spend more or go digital, you might as well just go the stantard active crossover route and take advantage of the time-alignment and stronger processing while you're taking the hit in an extra A/D to D/A conversion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 "lol, I woulda thought that alone was enough not to persue it...." Nope. Not for me. I have done it and was pleased with the results. I am about to do it again. Sometimes your situation dictates that you can't Biamp.....for one...speaker wires in wall. There is no official passive available......so ... I have no problem with actives that is for sure. I think that can be a nice setup too. Hey shawn, how many filters are you using for you K510 scala combo and are you using any delays? jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 I have talked to Roy about doing a JubeScala.. If I do this for my HT, I will need 3 up front. Not too sure what to do behind me? So maybe this means 2 behind for 7.1? For HT, you will always have a sub anyhow.. So the missing lower end in HT of the LaScala, does not really matter..... The problem is, I would love a passive solution, so I could use the amp I have now, or in the future? To do this, I would have to, or have someone else build the Cross Overs? And how expensive is this to do? (If someone is willing to go with a passive X over, add the 402 and k 69 driver at ______? dollars per speaker... In my opinion, there are a lot of La Scala people out there who "might" upgrade and go this route. But it has to be clear what is involved and cost wise too to pull it all together.. I am hoping for me and others to be a plug n play situation. IE you order the driver n horn from Klipsch and you get a passive in the mail from them or someone we trust on this board to do what Roy has tested and tweaked for a JubeScala so you wire to the top and bottom and your done.) I am in no hurry to do so right away, I am learning about all of this like the rest of you. But I get excited at the prospects! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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