Soundstage and toing questions

[Youthman]

If you take a look at my setup below, my speakers are about 6.5 feet apart and my couch is about 10 feet back from the speakers. Since taking the photo, I have begun to play with toeing them in. When I toe them in, how do I know how far to adjust them? What exactly am I trying to accomplish? I have heard people talk about large soundstage. Is this what I imagine if I close my eyes as I listen to the speakers, picturing a large stage in front of me? I am using CF-2's. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

[wuzzzer]

Toe-in on speakers will usually result in a better center image of the sound and imaging in general but at a loss in the soundstage width. There's a good blurb on toe-in on this site:

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/speakerplacement.html

Here too

http://www.onhifi.com/features/20001115.htm

[IndyKlipschFan]

Buy laser pointer... attach it to the top of the speaker exactly in the center... Then point it to where you sit a little left of your left ear ( 6- 12 inches) with your left speaker... a little to your right ear (the same) for the right... You should be able to see ALL THE WAY DOWN THE THROAT of the tweeter and it should be pointed at you! \_/ or \ _ _ /. (It will actually cross behind you.. but not in front of you.) Do not make it exactly at you, because if you move at all, you will hear a (sometimes big) difference.

Now if you had one chair for movies or dvd';s of course you would do this...LOL> You selfish listener you!

In stereo mode... you should swear the center is on, on some better recordings. Things will open up to placement to where the singer or instruments are, and it will be obvious. Most people IMO have never experienced this, but when they do, they get it immediately! I have people that have experienced this in my Home Theater for the first time in awe and say your center is on, because the singer is RIGHT THERE or the sax player etc., (Because that is how it was mixed) and it is awesome!

If it is you and your wife in the sweet spot. (Just use the laser points above apply to both of you.)

You will also find for HT it is awesome as well.

Enjoy, and do not look into the Laser pointer for you and your kids.. It will hurt you, even if it seems harmless!

[Islander]

With your speaker spacing, the degree of toe-in will be a compromise. As you toe them in more, the sound will improve, but you'll reach a point where the sweet spot will only be as wide as your head, meaning any head movement will cause the sound to be obviously coming from one speaker or the other. If you often listen with your wife, you'll want to go with a bit less toe-in than that.

The laser pointer is a big help, but if you put it on the center of the speaker, it's hard to be sure it's pointing exactly the way the speaker's pointing, so it can be easier to place it on one side of the speaker, then on the other side, so you can see the straight-ahead coverage area and the center will be easy to spot.

Toe-in is easy to experiment with, so try a few settings and listen to them for a while. There's no ultimate or absolute. See what sounds best to you.

You might also want to move your speakers ahead a few inches so they can "see" each other past the TV and entertainment center. Having all that stuff between the speakers can cause some reflection issues, so it's better if it's back a little.

[jacksonbart]

I agree move the speakers ahead a few inches to the are not even with the entertainment center. Also this my not be possible but its always better IMO to have the left and right speaker almost equal distant from the side and back walls in the room to get the best soundstage.

Take a look at this link, it may help.

http://www.rivesaudio.com/resources/listening_room/frame.html

[Ray Garrison]

I have a pair of CF-4 and have used them in quite a few different rooms in 3 different houses over the past several years.

From what I can see of your room, it's asymetrical with openings of different sizes going back behind both speakers, and open space to the sides. The triangle defined by the baseline between the two speakers and the tip being where you sit is rather "long and narrow" compared to what most people wind up with.

The CF in the name stands for "controlled focus" - in other words, this series of speakers was designed with one major goal being "confined directivity". The horizontal and vertical sound dispersion is very precisely configured, with less midrange and lower treble directed off axis and typical speakers. This means they interact with the room less severely in the more critical midrange frequencies. Given the amount of space around your CF-2, I would say don't just stop with experimenting with "toe in" - try "toe out" as well (not too severe an angle, just a few degrees at a time.) Also, as Islander wrote, I'd pull them forward a bit so there's less interference with the entertainment center between them.

If your expeience mirrors mine, you'll find you can alter the "soundstage" pretty significantly. I can get mine to range from a very wide perspective, with musicians and instruments very precisely positioned from left to right, but very little depth - sort of sounds like everyone is standing in front of a big sheet, lined up the same distance away from me. Or, I can go the opposite way by altering toe in - I can get a soundstage that sounds like it goes from a little bit in front of my speakers to way, way behind them, much further back than the wall behind the speakers, but with much less prcise placement within that space. By adjusting the space between them and the toe in angle so they're further apart and aimed so the axis of the tweeter horns cross a few feet behind my couch, I can get a really big, fat, wide, deep nebulous cloud of sound, very organic and, uh, chewey (rolls eyes, says Thanks Gizmo) but with very little "imaging" - I can't tell whether Yorke is standing in front of, beside or in back of O'Brien, and whether Selway is up on a platform behind them or dubbed in from another take I have no clue, but it sound great.

The best thing you can do is experiment. But do it slowly, over time. Line them up toed in a bit, and *LEAVE IT THAT WAY* long enough for you to get an idea of how it really sounds - few days at least. Then toe them in more. If it sounds significantly worse, don't waste any time trying to convince yourself that you just need to get used to the change - try something else. Toe in more. Toe out. Pull forward. Push back. When you find something that also sounds good, maybe better maybe not, leave it like that for a few days, then go back to where you were before.

If possible, one thing that will help keep you from driving yourself nuts is using little pieces of tape on the floor so you can mark exactly where the feet are, so you can go back to the same setup after you move them.

Do you have the pointy black things screwed into the feet pads?

Oh, another thing that did *wonders* for my CF-4 was putting a few cinder blocks wrapped in felt under them so they weren't sitting right on the floor.

[Youthman]

Wow guys! Thanks for the incredible amount of information. From what I am learning, baby steps, listen to it for a few days, and tweek till it sound right to me. I have moved my speakers out about 1 inch from the front of the entertainment center. I'm sure my wife will notice. LOL. This is a temp setting till we move into our new house with dedicated theater room but I figure I have until December to enjoy the room that I have them in now so I might as well make it sound the best that I can while we are here.

My CF-2's do not have the floor spikes, nor does it have any feet pads. I do feel holes on the bottom of the speaker (didn't know they were there). My previous Polk's had floor spikes.

Thanks again for all of the info. I didn't realize that you could get your speakers tweeked to the point that if you closed your eyes, you could visualize one artist in front of another. How is that possible if it is all being fed into a mixer that doesn't know who is in front on stage and who is in back? I can understand left and right but front and back....is that really possible?

[Islander]

I didn't realize that you could get your speakers tweeked to the point that if you closed your eyes, you could visualize one artist in front of another. How is that possible if it is all being fed into a mixer that doesn't know who is in front on stage and who is in back? I can understand left and right but front and back....is that really possible?

Sometimes you can even hear which musicians are sitting down and which are standing up. I don't know how that works, but with some recordings on some systems, it does.

As for forward and back, the quieter sound will usually seem to be farther away. It's an indication that you have a good system when you can hear the softer sounds as well as the louder sounds at the same time, even when they seem to come from the same place.

[PrestonTom]

One thing that has not yet been mentioned ....

When the speakers are toed-in there are frequently two more consequences

1) The sweet spot is expanded, that is you are not as constrained to sitting "right in the middle" in order to get the stereophonic spread. The physics behind this is mapped out by PWK in a DFH article

2) The high frequency response will be better (higher) since most speakers tend to have a high frequency roll-off as you go off axis (not directly facing the speaker). This roll off varies to a degree with different models.

Good Luck & Enjoy,

-Tom

[WMcD]

The front back thing was demonstrated in "old' papers on the subject. However that was a matter of a live recording in the same room as the playback and with microphones pretty much spaced as the speakers. I doubt it can be done with a run of the mill recording. OTOH people have reported it and I have no reason to doubt it.

I believe that you're not getting good imaging because of the TV cabinet in the center. It is probably reflecting some sound out into your listening area which is messing things up. Another problem may be that the speakers are not up at ear level and/or too close to the floor. I realize there are domestic issues making the present placement necessary.

I would suggest you try an experiment when you can (meaning when the wife is not around). Put the speakers on some sort of boxes (cinderblock, milk carton - nothing wobbly, smile) to get them up about 1.5 feet off the floor. (Yes, bass may suffer.) Move them out away laterally from the TV into the passage ways. Move them forward from the TV by about 1.5 feet. And toe them in toward your listening spot. Put yourself at the third point of the equilateral triangle formed.

This is pretty much the suggested optimum or starting point for imaging from a two channel system with minimum interactions with the room and furniture. If things work, you should be able to get a good "phantom" center image on recordings are mixed with the lead singer or instrument mixed to mono and therefore center.

I've obtained a good phantom with speakers in corners but it is in a very symetric room and with the tractrix mid which has good directionality.

It is also my theory that stories of success with toe-in is really a matter of directing sound away from the walls (or furniture) more than toward the listener. But you can imagine that it is a matter of having a strong direct sound toward the sweet spot and little reflected sound.

If that set up gets you good results, you might try moving things toward something more acceptable to the wife without losing too much. But probably you'll have to wait for the new house.

Gil

[erdric]

Rather than start a new thread, I'll ask here. I've been reading about speaker placement recently and when it comes to toe-in I keep seeing things like 'manufacturers recommendation for the speaker' and that some speakers should be toe'd in and others not. It got me to wondering where the Forte II's fall. Are they supposed to be toe'd in or not? Yes, I'm playing around with what I like but it would be nice to know what is considered to be 'right' for the Forte II. After that I'll consider which is more important t me, soundstage width or center image, etc. Any thoughts?

[WMcD]

I think I do not have a manual which is specific to the Forte II. I'll look.

In the meantime, please look at the manual I posted in http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/89121/901034.aspx#901034

To my knowledge Klipsch has recommended toe-in since the early days. The manual above mentions passive radiators and therefore I believe it contemplated the Forte II.

You'll note that there is language about aiming the toe-in so that the axes cross in front of the listener. I don't believe that there is some magic overlap of mystical force fields there, as if it forms a hologram just in front of you because of the intersection.

Again, in my view the major purpose of toe-in is to keep the sound off the walls. Crossing in front of the listener may be a shorthand expression for aiming a bit away from the sidewalls.

What is optimal for you probably depends on the amount of toe-in, and the placement of speakers, and the listening spot, and these depend on your room. The toe-in and placement descibed is probably a good starting point but not necessarily the very best for your room. People report improvements with experimentation and sometimes small adjustments.

As I've said, the easiest situation seems to be a very symetric front wall and corners. We just can't rebuild our room in most cases. Then, more experimentation is necessary.

Gil

[erdric]

When all else fails, RTFM, which I would have done if I had one. Thanks for posting the link, Gil. I have my speakers toe'd in now, slightly in front of my seating position but that's through sheer dumb luck. I had read somewhere that crossing them in front could open up the sweet spot slightly so I tried it and liked it. I'm in a tweaking mood so I may play around with the placement just to see what happens. Thanks again!

[IndyKlipschFan]

erdric

OK, One more thought...

You may want to cross em just slightly behind you. NOT in front of you. This will maintain propper left n right channel separation. It might not give you that center phantom feel too?

In my HT...4 seats accross... In the (Left speaker) position, I did it to the left upper corner of the center left chair.. And the (Right speaker) position to the right upper corner of the center right chair.

For those that worry, it is still wonderful in the other seats. And not as important for 7.1 HT Sound..

But were talking stereo here...

In my center 2 seats... I can almost always get that center phantom speaker effect in 2 channel. Depth of field is amazing, and I can pinpoint exactly where the musicians are. People say, "The center is on Roger," yet walk up and 2 feet away realize it is not. What I am trying to say is it is beautiful man.... just amazing, when it is all dialed in correctly too. Laser pointers will help.. Play around a bit.

Come back n tell us what you find out too.

[colterphoto1]

The Tractrix horn is NOT a laser beam. it's not necessary to look directly into the dragon's mouth. One of the entire points of Tractix is to eliminate the beaming effect of higher frequencies being increasingly more directional.

That being said, toe in does one very important thing when we are taking about controlled directivity (horn speakers), and that is to keep early reflections off of the side walls of the room. It helps to have the speakers some distance from the side walls, but it's still a 90 degree horn. The idea is to get a higher direct/reflected sound field. Toe in to the degree you are looking straight into the horn may result in a narrower than ideal sweet spot (it's ok if there is only ONE listener). The ultimate toe in is the Klipschorn- placing a 90 degree horn 45 degrees in a corner practically eliminates any reflections until after the sound wave has passed the listener.

Re the distance from the front wall. Michael's general rule is to use as a starting point the sum of the diameter of all passives or ports. For the forte II that would be 15". You need some distance for the port/passive to 'breathe' unrestricted into the space, but you still need some reinforcement from a wall at some distance. I would say that the photo presented does not meet this criteria and therefore is less than ideal in the bass.

Michael

[IndyKlipschFan]

The Tractrix horn is NOT a laser beam. it's not necessary to look
directly into the dragon's mouth. One of the entire points of Tractix
is to eliminate the beaming effect of higher frequencies being
increasingly more directional.

True...On thew Tractrix, but crossing in front of you is not as good as crossing it behind you or straight out some.. Again, stereo image is the desire here too.. Good points Michael on the rest of it.!

[erdric]

Thanks for the additional replies. I'm going to play around with the toe-in to see what works best for me. We're planning to build a new room this summer and when that happens I'll have all sorts of options, including moving the speakers off of the front wall and spreading them out. Right now I have them about 7 inches off the front wall and on either side of the TV stand (roughly 5' apart). In the new room I'll be able to spread them to around 10' apart and maybe 18" from the side wall. I'll be able to push the speakers off the front wall by anywhere from 15" to 30", but that is probably too far given the rule of thumb coulter suggested. BTW, I assume the 15" from the front wall is to the center of the passive on the back, correct? So with toe-in the center of the passive would be 15", one corner would be less than 15" and the other more. Do I have that correct?