Belles with Naim electronics

[Joe Petrik]

I've been an audiophool for a couple of decades now, but I never seriously considered Klipsch because I mistakenly thought they were speakers for headbangers. I had a recent demonstration of Belle Klipsch, however, that pretty much turned that conception on its head. I'm now seriously considering the Belles, but I have a suspicion they'd be too bright and aggressive on the end of Naim electronics.

Does anyone here use big Klipsch with Naim and is it a combination that works well together?


My system is as follows --

Sources -- Rega P9 table, RB900 arm, Dynavector XX-2 cartridge and Dynavector P-75 phono stage; Naim CD2 CD player

Electronics -- Naim 102 preamp, Naim Hi-Cap analogue power supply, Naim NAPCS digital power supply, Naim 250 power amp

Speakers -- Royd Sorcerers, which are the exact opposite of Belles -- small and inefficient bookshelf speakers.

I'm not a volume nut, but after hearing the Belles I understand what uncompressed dynamics are about. My only quibbles with the Belles are that the speakers are a bit coloured, directional and bass shy given their size.


Any advice would be appreciated, including whether it would be better to hold out for K-horns, which I understand are like Belles but with more bottom end weight and depth.

Thanks,
Joe

[seti]

I haven't heard any Naim products but they have a great reputation. I'm not sure if you can still order Belles but it would be worth asking. The new La Scala II's are amazing. They would be closer to Belles in sound. The plus side of Belles or La Scalas is the ability to move them around. I had mine in corners two feet from back wall and toed in abit. The quality of the bass is so good with bass horns that I didn't really think I was losing much. I recently got some 1978 Khorns which I love but I do miss the ability to move the Belles around the room. I would look for a hi-fi shop that has the new LaScala II's. You can't go wrong with either choice.

Good luck and welcome to the forum

[Joe Petrik]

Thanks, seti.

I should note that I'm considering the Belles because a used pair is available locally.

Joe

[tigerwoodKhorns]

If available locally the thing to do is bring your preamp and power amp (or integrated) over with a CD player for a test drive.

Local Heritage is a very good thing because shipping is a really big hassle.

Be prepared to put new capacitors in the Belles. Do you know what crossover they have?

I actualy was surprised at how much bass my Belles had. First with 3 watt SET's and then even more with a 30 wpc digital amp and then a 35 wpc Crown D75.

[sunburnwilly]

I have never heard any Naim components but I have great sound using a Quad 606 for my main Belles .

I don't know if Naim is similar to Quad in sound but this amp is designed to drive electrostatic speakers and it drives the Belles like you would not believe !

It barely gets warm .

[Joe Petrik]

Thanks.

I don't know anything about the history of the Belles in question, other than they're not a recent model. They may need some work on the crossovers and the finish certainly could use some TLC.

For what it's worth, I find Naim amps different from just about everything else so they're very much in the love it or hate it category. My suspicion is that they're not an ideal choice with Klipsch even though they have some sonic characteristics in common, what Naimies call PRaT -- pace, rhythm and timing.

Joe

[seti]

Thanks, seti.

I should note that I'm considering the Belles because a used pair is available locally.

Joe

I had a pair and they are on of the most beautiful speakers ever made. They sound great. Quick buy them before someone else does!!!!!!!!!!!

Try the Naim on the Belles and see what you think. I prefer tubes but thats just me.

[Joe Petrik]

Thanks for the replies.

My suspicion is that Naim and Klipsch would not be a good match. I don't have any experience to back up this assumption, but given that no one here seems use Naim electronics with their Klipsch Heritage speakers and no one on the Naim forum seems to have Klipsch suggests the combination isn't a pleasant one.

What I have to avoid is making a speaker change that necessitates an entire system change. I simply can't afford to do this, as both time and money are limited. However, if they weren't, I'd buy K-horns sight unseen, sound unheard, then experiment with different sources and amps to assemble a combination that hopefully gelled. But my situation is a different -- I'm mostly happy with my system, but we recently bought a house and my listening room is much larger than any I've had previously, so my Sorcerers, which worked well in other smaller rooms, are completely out of their element now. You simply can't expect a shoebox-sized speaker with a 5-inch woofer to fill a room that measures 11 x 35 x 6.5 feet (W x L x H).

I've asked my hi-fi buddies at pink fish media for recommendations. A couple suggested I try a Heritage speaker, ideally the biggest one I can afford. Both guys, incidentally, have tried tube amps (Prima Luna Prologue II and Manley Stingray) with their Heresies and find the combination excellent.

I don't mind a bit of tweaking, but I'm mostly looking for a plug-and-play solution -- just buy some good speakers, connect them, then sit back and enjoy my LPs. I have the suspicion that Belles can be downright spellbinding in the right room with the right equipment, but perhaps they're not for me. However, if someone has actually tried them with Naim and really liked the pairing I'll keep them on my contenders list.

(I think I finally figured out how to make paragraph breaks appear -- sorry for the bad typography earlier in this thread.)

Joe

[seti]

Thanks for the replies.

My suspicion is that Naim and Klipsch would not be a good match. I don't have any experience to back up this assumption, but given that no one here seems use Naim electronics with their Klipsch Heritage speakers and no one on the Naim forum seems to have Klipsch suggests the combination isn't a pleasant one.

What I have to avoid is making a speaker change that necessitates an entire system change. I simply can't afford to do this, as both time and money are limited. However, if they weren't, I'd buy K-horns sight unseen, sound unheard, then experiment with different sources and amps to assemble a combination that hopefully gelled. But my situation is a different -- I'm mostly happy with my system, but we recently bought a house and my listening room is much larger than any I've had previously, so my Sorcerers, which worked well in other smaller rooms, are completely out of their element now. You simply can't expect a shoebox-sized speaker with a 5-inch woofer to fill a room that measures 11 x 35 x 6.5 feet (W x L x H).

I've asked my hi-fi buddies at pink fish media for recommendations. A couple suggested I try a Heritage speaker, ideally the biggest one I can afford. Both guys, incidentally, have tried tube amps (Prima Luna Prologue II and Manley Stingray) with their Heresies and find the combination excellent.

I don't mind a bit of tweaking, but I'm mostly looking for a plug-and-play solution -- just buy some good speakers, connect them, then sit back and enjoy my LPs. I have the suspicion that Belles can be downright spellbinding in the right room with the right equipment, but perhaps they're not for me. However, if someone has actually tried them with Naim and really liked the pairing I'll keep them on my contenders list.

(I think I finally figured out how to make paragraph breaks appear -- sorry for the bad typography earlier in this thread.)

Joe

If you want perfect sound right off the bat maybe this isn't what you want. I bought my Belles first and used a loner solidstate integrated amp. It was "ok" sounding. Then as I changed components crossovers then preamp then amps the sound just kept getting better and better. This was part of the fun for me. I think NAIM is a bigger brand name in Canada and the UK. A friend in England has a complete NAIM system and really enjoys it. Would it be possible for you to take what you have now to the Belles and audition them with your gear? The room would be a variable but it would give you a good idea.

[Joe Petrik]

Thanks, seti.

I'm not looking for perfect sound, but I'm not after a speaker that needs lots of TLC to perform near its potential. It's not so much an issue of laziness on my part as one where time and money limit what I can do.

I could take my Naim amps to the store to do the demonstration, but it's a bit of a pain since they need to be set up and warmed up to do their thing well, so I thought I'd save myself the hassle by asking here first. For what it's worth, my online audio buddies categorically didn't like the Heresies with Naim. I'm asking about Belles, however, because I thought the situation might be different, given that they're fuller range speakers.

Thanks to all for the advice.

Joe

[seti]

Thanks, seti.

I'm not looking for perfect sound, but I'm not after a speaker that needs lots of TLC to perform near its potential. It's not so much an issue of laziness on my part as one where time and money limit what I can do.

I could take my Naim amps to the store to do the demonstration, but it's a bit of a pain since they need to be set up and warmed up to do their thing well, so I thought I'd save myself the hassle by asking here first. For what it's worth, my online audio buddies categorically didn't like the Heresies with Naim. I'm asking about Belles, however, because I thought the situation might be different, given that they're fuller range speakers.

Thanks to all for the advice.

Joe

So when are you picking them up [6] IF they have older crossovers I would upgrade them other than that leave them be and listen to them. If they are newer I wouldn't worry about them. I don't think you could go wrong with Belles. I loved mine.

[LarryC]

I'm not looking for perfect sound, but I'm not after a speaker that needs lots of TLC to perform near its potential. It's not so much an issue of laziness on my part as one where time and money limit what I can do...For what it's worth, my online audio buddies categorically didn't like the Heresies with Naim. I'm asking about Belles, however, because I thought the situation might be different, given that they're fuller range speakers.

Joe

Given that, I suggest you take your amps to the store for a listen if that will answer your question. Better than potential months/years of remorse. The Heresy issue might only be due to Heresy-specific things like a lack of deep-down bass and relative prominence of the smaller mid-horn, or it might be something more generic between Klipsch's horny upper-range revelations and Naims.

IMO, Belles should be better with clean, possibly bright associated equipment, because of the horn-loading and larger horn radiating area throughout the entire range. I haven't heard them, but the similar LaScalas sound very good with a variety of good electronics.

[Islander]

I'm not looking for perfect sound, but I'm not after a speaker that needs lots of TLC to perform near its potential. It's not so much an issue of laziness on my part as one where time and money limit what I can do.

Heritage speakers are very tweakable, but lots of people are happy with their sound in perfectly stock form. You could listen to them forever and be happy, or eventually get the urge to do some upgrading, but it's certainly not mandatory.

Depending on the music you listen to, you might want to add a sub if really solid very low bass is important to you.

[kaiser SET say]

Joe, if you can afford it pick the Belles up and replace the x-overs & phrams get yourself a nice little tube amp off a-gon and have yourself two completely different sounding systems. I'm sure the used amp and speaker upgrades could be done under a grand with patience.

You seem very interested in the Belles and this would be the best solution IMHO but then again it's not my wallet. Best of luck to you in whichever direction you go[]

[garyrc]

If you really have a ceiling that is only 6.5 feet high, I wouldn't hold out for Klipschorns -- both Klipsch and Audio magazine (in a long, fairly positive, technical and detailed review of Klipschorns in the late '80s) say that Klipschorns do better in rooms with fairly high ceilings. Klipsch recommends 8.5 feet or more. I think it has (partly) to do with the tweeter sound bouncing off of a low ceiling too soon with the bounce arriving at one's ears before the sound from the mid and lows get there, since the mid/low horns are long, and the mid and low drivers are located at a greater distance. Yeah, the direct sound of the tweeter gets there too soon also, but the very early reflection from a too low ceiling just compounds it. This may or may not be a problem with Belles, because both the mid and low horns are shorter, and, of course, the tweeters are not up so high in the room.

I don't hear a problem in rooms with high ceilings. With lower ceilings, high grade diffusion and/or absorption placed on the ceiling might minimize the effect. I don't know.

Belles with the addition of a subwoofer cut in at a very low frequency (let the Belle deliver it's clean and impressive attack at 60 HZ and above) might seem better balanced than Belles alone. The sub would have to be capable of very high output to match the Belles, though. Mine works fine with 2 K-horns and a Belle. It's a Klipsch RSW-15.

[Doc Robin]

How much can you get the Belle's for? If the price is too high a set of Cornwalls would be do nicely. Later Bill

[seti]

If you really have a ceiling that is only 6.5 feet high, I wouldn't hold out for Klipschorns -- both Klipsch and Audio magazine (in a long, fairly positive, technical and detailed review of Klipschorns in the late '80s) say that Klipschorns do better in rooms with fairly high ceilings. Klipsch recommends 8.5 feet or more. I think it has (partly) to do with the tweeter sound bouncing off of a low ceiling too soon with the bounce arriving at one's ears before the sound from the mid and lows get there, since the mid/low horns are long, and the mid and low drivers are located at a greater distance. Yeah, the direct sound of the tweeter gets there too soon also, but the very early reflection from a too low ceiling just compounds it. This may or may not be a problem with Belles, because both the mid and low horns are shorter, and, of course, the tweeters are not up so high in the room.

I don't hear a problem in rooms with high ceilings. With lower ceilings, high grade diffusion and/or absorption placed on the ceiling might minimize the effect. I don't know.

Belles with the addition of a subwoofer cut in at a very low frequency (let the Belle deliver it's clean and impressive attack at 60 HZ and above) might seem better balanced than Belles alone. The sub would have to be capable of very high output to match the Belles, though. Mine works fine with 2 K-horns and a Belle. It's a Klipsch RSW-15.

My audio room has ceilings 11.5 feet high and it isn't quite square. It is the best room I have had for audio. It even sounds good in their to just talk in there. A dramatic difference from other rooms in the house. I'd like to measure the room but I don't know how.

[Joe Petrik]

Thanks again for the replies and advice.



The second-hand Belles are selling for $2500 Cdn, which, given the
current exchange rate, is about the same in US dollars. The speakers
appear to be in good shape but the finish has been ruined. I'm guessing
they were treated with a wood cleaner or polish that stripped the
finish irregularly. I think they could be restored easily enough, so
that doesn't concern me other than I wouldn't pay top dollar for a
cosmetically challenged speaker.



Canuck Audio Mart is the biggest online used site in Canada. It's like
Audiogon, except the sellers are based in Canada. I searched for
Klipsch and a few used speakers came up that lead me to believe the
Belles are overprice, especially given their condition. For example...



* A pair of mint K-horns circa 1975 is going for $2750 Cdn



* A pair of Corrnwall IIs is going for $950 Cdn



* A pair of Heresy IIs are going for $450 Cdn



Given these prices and that the Belles are in much worse cosmetic
shape, what would be a fair price? I'm guessing it would be
substantailly less than $2500 if mint K-horns can be had for $2750.



If possible I rather not sell my Naim amps. They're not perfect by any
stretch, but their strengths are important to me and I suspect I
couldn't beat their rhythmic qualities with a tube amp without spending
a small fortune. For what it's worth, here's an excerpt from wiki on Naim Audio if you're unfamiliar with what the brand is about --



________________

Historically, Naim components have had a strong following

from audiophiles for their presentation of pace, rhythm and timing

(PRaT). This design approach was to attempt to reproduce attributes

which were regarded by Vereker as the fundamental and universal to all

music. "Sonic attributes" such as tonal accuracy/neutrality were

relegated in importance; while spatial rendition was regarded as mere

artefacts of the modern recording studio. This approach defined what

became known as the British "flat earth" sound.

While this made for a very dynamic, upfront sound, the company's

products were occasionally criticised for lack of subtlety in

reproducing classical music, whose aficionados seemingly prefer

accurate portrayal of timbre (tonal neutrality) and a more detailed

sound. Harshness in reproducing many recordings from a digital source

was also a common criticism. Naim appears to have heeded this

criticism: the 5 series and the Reference range launched in 2002 seem

to be much more "digital friendly", although the changes have not been

wholeheartedly welcomed by those who prefer the classic sound.

________________





Thought I'd post a couple of snap shots of the room, so people would
get a better idea of the acoustic space I'm trying to fill. The room is
narrow and long, measuring 11 x 35 x 6.5 feet. It's carpeted and the
ceiling is irregular, so it's not bright or echo-y, but it's a big
space.

The Sorcerers are against the wall of the room's short dimension
and my couch is little less than half of the way back along the room's
long dimension. The other half of the room is where my three-year-old
daughter's playroom and toys are.

As you can see, my current speakers are the exact opposite of Belles

Joe

[Doc Robin]

I would check out the Cornwall's if at all possible. As far as a price for the Belle's; we would have to see some pictures of them and would also need more info about them. Later Bill

[Mike Lindsey]

Looks like you have 8' ceilings to me. Of course, if that TV is 13" then I would have to agree with you. []

Mike