Who here uses a pro amp to drive his speakers ?

[Erik Mandaville]

Hi Mark:

You phrased the question about why people could like a pro audio amplifier in a very general and open-ended way, and the idea of how this particular amplifier relates to the concept of personal preference is one I have been interested in since it was first brought up.

Your right about the safety concern, though, including cheater plugs. People have also been called 'chicken' because they preferred not to do electrical work in a live chassis. I don't mind offering my two cents worth if it might keep someone from getting hurt. To my way of thinking, personal safety and possibly preventing electrocution is not the same as choosing the sound of one component over another (if that's what you were referring to in bringing up the cheater plug issue -- I wasn't completely clear on that).

The 'High End' comment: You didn't bring up that phrase, someone else did. Accept my apology for making that seem as if it came from you; I can see how you might have read it that way.

Lastly, I'm always interested in defending personal preference, where people are weighing multiple factors in selecting components for their stereo systems. Historically here, phrases such as "You're deaf if you can't tell the difference" or "The fact that you like this (whatever it may have been) is proof of your lack of experience, understanding, and that you're an idiot." have been hurled over discussions ranging from capacitors, crossover topologies, amplifiers, and everything else. I'm not saying that's come up in relation to this discussion of pro audio equipment, and I'm not accusing anyone of using the phrases I just mentioned in this specific situation. I'm simply clarifying the reason why I have chosen to post in some cases in the past. Ultimately, you're right. It would be best to just skip along and do something much more...

CONSTRUCTIVE! []

Erik

[Erik Mandaville]

"I'm probably wrong here Erik, but I ASSUMED every adult here "knew" they were allowed to exercise their personal preferences."

I would truly like to be able to assume the same thing, Mark.

You mentioned that radio in your previous post -- an HD, if I'm not mistaken. I've been interested in trying that myself.

Take care,

Erik

[Coytee]

I'm kind of intrigued by something that I can't get out of my twisted mind.

In the realm of "professional" and "home grade" we might have some names...

MAC or Snap on tools, verses...? Walmart brand? (some might say Craftsman)

Hobart mixer verses Oester?

Milwaukee Sawzall verses Black & Decker?

Zeiss verses Bushnell?

Hilti verses DeWalt?

I'm sitting here, trying to think of some "professional" grade names and on a quickie...came up with those...Heck, in today's age of things made in China, I can't be sure that some of the above are still valid... If we may presume them to be essentially valid, then why might the "pro" grade above be considered better than the consumer grade however, in the world of Amps, that logic gets turned on its head?

[kev313]

I'm kind of intrigued by something that I can't get out of my twisted mind.

In the realm of "professional" and "home grade" we might have some names...

MAC or Snap on tools, verses...?  Walmart brand? (some might say Craftsman)

Hobart mixer verses Oester?

Milwaukee Sawzall verses Black & Decker?

Zeiss verses Bushnell?

Hilti verses DeWalt?

I'm sitting here, trying to think of some "professional" grade names and on a quickie...came up with those...Heck, in today's age of things made in China, I can't be sure that some of the above are still valid...  If we may presume them to be essentially valid, then why might the "pro" grade above be considered better than the consumer grade however, in the world of Amps, that logic gets turned on its head?

 

 

 

My sense (and I'm not quoting anyone directly, is that this argument does sort of play to those who think that pro amps are just swell for home applications. In other words, that a pro amp is being asked to do the same thing as a "home" amp ("big" or "clean" sound being some of the descriptive words tossed about) as a Milwaukee is basically asked to do the same job as a Black and Decker. Advocates of home amps for home use, however, will likely tell you that these are different tools for different jobs...

[Coytee]

Advocates of home amps for home use, however, will likely tell you that these are different tools for different jobs...

That's where I'm missing the logic though. Seems to me in just about any application, you can buy a 'consumer grade' tool or a 'professional grade' tool to do the same job (Snapon wrench -vs- ?? Craftsman?... Hilti verses Black & Decker)

I'd suggest that someone take a Black & Decker hammer drill and go punch maybe 10, one inch holes in concrete (it's made for that job, right?? it is a hammer drill)

Now, go get a Hilti and punch 10 more holes... then tell me which one you'd rather me buy you for Christmas!! [G]

Just seems to me in about any application the "professional" is going to win out yet, here in this arena, all the sudden (and as best I can tell) most if not all "pro" amps are in some way inferior to (ostensibly 'nicer' verses walmart brand) home amps?

I can certainly understand that a named professional might not be as good as a named home brand but it just doesn't make sense to suggest home amps are by & large, better in the home than pro amps as a catagory (my interpretation of what I've been reading over last several weeks)

Aren't they all doing the same thing? (amplifying)

[*-)]

[SWL]

It's like Mark said earlier...........this all makes very good "discussion".[]

I'm one of the fortunate ones who has pro, consumer and tubes in the house to play with.

My pro-amps take care of my concert/home theatre.

My tubes are used for casual two-channel listening in the bedroom.

Miscellaneous ss equipment handles the basement workout room and outdoor speakers for summer parties.

I'm having a blast!![]

[Coytee]

I'm one of the fortunate ones who has pro, consumer and tubes in the house to play with.

Me too. In fact, right now I've got my Crown K2's out of the system for my consumer grade amp!

I'm having a blast!!

I'm right behind you!

[Y]

[Coytee]

There's nothing "professional grade" about cheap PA amps

I then resign myself to being confused over semantics. I would have thought that an amp (however cheap PA it might be) that was being used in some commercial format would consider to being used in that "profession" therefore, a "pro" amp.

Maybe we should better define our terms and what qualifies as what?

If a rack of Xti's is being used at a public arena for a Deep Purple concert, aren't they being used professionally, hence, "pro amps"??

I would have thought so.

so, if say, the Xti, is not a pro amp, where in their food chain do you draw the line of distinction? (I presume price is the basic scale?)

Also... if the Xti is not a pro amp, not a home amp.... what is it? Seems to me those are the two basic camps, no?

[joshnich]

Lets torture this analogy a little further. A dump truck is a professional vehicle. A Ferrari F2008 is also a professional vehicle. If I needed to move a big old pile of dirt and needed the horsepower to do so, I would use the relatively inexpensive horsepower that the dump truck provided. I dont think I could move a lot of dirt with the F2008 even though the cost per horsepower is a fair bit higher.

Josh

[Coytee]

Lets torture this analogy a little further.

Torture indeed... []

I'd suggest that is no more accurate than saying a circular saw and a drill are the same tool because they both have electrical cords and I can use a drill bit to poke a bunch of holes in a board and "cut" it in two, right? Just because they both plug in (or have 4 basic sets of wheels in the truck analogy) doesn't mean they're intended for the same use. Above, I at least used tools designed for the same job, one being 'professinal' and another 'home owner grade' Perhaps if you said dump truck verses a Toyota/Honda/Chevy/Ford/Dodge... pickup truck....

I'd suggest that in all above cases, the 'professional' version would be preferred by the home owner when doing the job it was designed for.

I myself would prefer to use my backhoe loader for moving yoru pile of dirt... as you have no way of picking it up in your example and with my backhoe/loader I can pick it up AND move it... (just not very far [])

[kev313]

Advocates of home amps for home use, however, will likely tell you that these are different tools for different jobs...

That's where I'm missing the logic though.  Seems to me in just about any application, you can buy a 'consumer grade' tool or a 'professional grade' tool to do the same job (Snapon wrench -vs- ??  Craftsman?...  Hilti verses Black & Decker)

I'd suggest that someone take a Black & Decker hammer drill and go punch maybe 10, one inch holes in concrete (it's made for that job, right??  it is a hammer drill)

Now, go get a Hilti and punch 10 more holes...  then tell me which one you'd rather me buy you for Christmas!!

Just seems to me in about any application the "professional" is going to win out yet, here in this arena, all the sudden (and as best I can tell) most if not all "pro" amps are in some way inferior to (ostensibly 'nicer' verses walmart brand) home amps?

I can certainly understand that a named professional might not be as good as a named home brand but it just doesn't make sense to suggest home amps are by & large, better in the home than pro amps as a catagory (my interpretation of what I've been reading over last several weeks)

Aren't they all doing the same thing?  (amplifying)

 

 

 Nvermind.

No kidding.

[Duke Spinner]

Aaaahhhh ... the Klipsch Forum ....[*-)]

MD .. has presented a well reasoned argument , with measurements ...

as to the Differences in these types of Amplifiers .....

while not true of All .." Pro " Amps ....

the Facts certainly are true of most .... go back to the D45 thread, and read it carefully ...

[Jeff Matthews]

Here's a rationale, Mark. As in almost all consumer items, there is this factor of price. No matter what you chose, there will always be something "better" that is more expensive. At some point, the marginal return to the consumer is not worth the marginal cost. Pure and simple - economics.

If you wanted to set a Crown Microtech and a MacIntosh "whatever" on the table for free, and I get to choose only one, you know, I think I might pick the MacIntosh. Fair enough?

[Deang]

It might be better to use the word "commercial" as opposed to the word "professional". Maybe the "Pro" tag has more to do with the people who use the gear -- they do it for a living/get paid for their services. Anyways, it does makes sense that commercial gear is built around a different set of priorities than consumer stuff -- high sound quality would certainly seem to take a back seat to durability and power. I did tell Mark the other day that surely there must be some consumer amps that wouldn't sound as good as an XTi. He assured me that his Best Buy Denon receiver sounded better. I know how lousy it sounded on my Advents so I didn't have much footing for an argument. We spent a long time talking about all of this, and when I suggested that maybe the XTi's signature just works good on horns (which is what they were undoubtably voiced with) -- he reminded me of the poor measurements and noise. I told him I still think a pair of them split out on a Jubilee sounds really good. He suggested something that he might be right about -- the sound of the Jubilee is such a departure from the Heritage sound most of us are used to that it might be getting in the way of noticing some things. You're so taken with the big clean sound that it's hard to push it out of the way and notice what's going on with the subtleties (that end up being such a large contributor to the good sound). Even still, I have absolutely no problem recommending a pair of XTi's to someone who just shelled out $7000 for a pair of Jubilees and wants to get them up and running so they can be enjoyed. It is however a beginning point -- not the place to stop. For everyone else, QSC PLX is the way to go in the bang for buck department. If things pan out here in the next month or so I'll definitely be adding an 1104 to my growing inventory.

[Don Richard]

The question then is why on earth would you want the sound of a PA system in your house?

Mark, seriously, have you been to a live concert where sound reinforcement was used lately? It ain't 1965 anymore and the sound that I have been hearing lately has been very good at concerts, and depends more on the talent of the SR crew running the show than the gear being used. I want my home system to sound as much as possible like the live show that I heard, whether it be a chest slamming kick drum at 105dB SPL or a glockenspiel at 75 dB. It easily does both.

The essence of the difference between PA and home audio, lies in the SOUND itself, and that must be experienced and perceived by whomever is making the choice.

So we are in agreement, it appears.

If you visit ballparks and outdoor rallies and karaoke bars and often find yourself saying, "man, I wish my home system sounded like that!"

This would require a something like a Bogen mixer/amplifier and an EV Cobraflex paging horn. You are confusing a vocal paging system with a sound reinforcement system. Paging systems restrict the frequency range to about 300-4000 hz or so for vocal intelligibility. Far from sufficient for music reproduction. BTW, if you hooked The Best Audio Amplifier in the Whole Wide World, DC to 2 ghz response, to that Cobraflex paging horn it would sound the same as the Bogen.

Back in the old days, days even older than me, sound at the movies was the best sound reproduction most people had heard. Cinema sound systems were put into homes by those desiring the best audio available. These people were using professional grade equipment for home use. I'm just following their lead, trying to recreate the sounds I heard at a show as best as possible.

Don

Honk if you love Horns

[Coytee]

It was however, pointed out to me in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that many people were selecting the Xti as a "COST NO OBJECT" choice, and that they could afford any amps on the planet but preferred the Xti for reasons X, Y and Z.The thrust of my argument therefore, was aimed at understanding that rationale.

Are you able to find that specific comment and post a link to it here??

1. I've never read it (then again, I could have missed it)

2. I've never heard that description used when I have read things and/or discussed them. What I HAVE heard used is the Xti is the LOW cost way into the Jubilees, almost specifically the opposite of what you are suggesting you were told. I know that I myself, have made that implication and also suggested that if someone DID have the budget, the Dx38 (or passives I presume) would allow greater flexiblity of amps BUT, would come at a higher cost.

I'd contend to you that the Xti "solution" has always been one of the least cost solutions to Jubilee ownership (that also happened to sound pretty good) NOT the "cost no object" solution.... I don't know a single Jubilee owner that would take that stance relative to the Jubilees or frankly, any other speaker.

Can you find it? We'll burn em at the stakes at noon!! (if we use eastern time, you have about 3 minutes [:'(])

[Coytee]

It was however, pointed out to me in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that many people were selecting the Xti as a "COST NO OBJECT" choice, and that they could afford any amps on the planet but preferred the Xti for reasons X, Y and Z.The thrust of my argument therefore, was aimed at understanding that rationale.

Another thought hit me...

Myself: I don't own Xti's so I didn't say it.

MikeB: Doesn't own Xti's so I doubt he said it, he too can afford more expensive amps

Ralph (London): He's not using Xti's, I'd imagine he can afford more expsneive amps, he's not too active on forum so he probably didn't say it

Dean: Had Xti's, doesn't have Xti's... no dust accumulates on Deano's stuff!! Doesn't sit there long enough

Bob Damato: Heck... he's BUILT his own amps, he can do whatever he wants (retired EE and has MAYBE 3 posts on forum?)

Kevin: can afford any amp (I think he uses Xti, also not too active on forum)

Paul: can afford any amp, uses McIntosh stuff

Chris: I think uses Xti's

Henry: Uses Xti's, only has a dozen posts on forum so he didn't say anything

Bill H: Uses Xti's, can afford what he wants

Bill W: Uses Xti's in his commercial place of business. Can afford others as he could expense them!

Travis: Not sure yet what he's got going

Mike T: Not sure what he's using either but he also, isn't too active on the forum.

I think if any of the Jube owners were willing to have any amp given to them, that they'd explore other amps. For what the Xti offers, simplicity of package happenstance good price and good sound (after all it IS a PA amp on PA speakers, so they have synergy []) it provides for a nice "one stop shop"

Remember, this seems to be a forum of bargain hunters (nothing wrong with that). Forking out $7,000 on a pair of speakers does not seem to be the norm for this crowd. Add to that, an additional $1,300 for a DX or perhaps $1,000 (unsure) for a passive and then add the cost of the amps... You'd have what, $10,000??? contrasted with spending $8,000 for the entire package (speakers & Xti's rounded up) is a nice way to be a bargain hunter and still end up with some killer sound.

I think it simply shows the value there.

Not everyone sits in their chair, working up a sweat & becoming short of breath as they work their ears off, trying to hear the air of each symbol "shhhh". Some folks might just love to listen to music that sounds good and relax!!

[]

[Marvel]

I think that between Richard and Dean, it is pretty clear why people are using the Xti.

[SWL]

I want my home system to sound as much as possible like the live show that I heard, whether it be a chest slamming kick drum at 105dB SPL or a glockenspiel at 75 dB. It easily does both

[Y][Y][Y]

[SWL]

But to suggest that these whimpy pro amps are in any way "better" than good SS audio amps is simply false at every conceivable level - technically, sonically, or any other way.

I don't know that anybody on this forum ever said that they are "better"...........rather a good alternative because of the price/performance.

........"Whimpy pro amps" ?[]