paul Klipsch centerspeaker setup from the fifties...

[heresy]

Hello Dear Klipschfriends , we all know that Mister paul Klipsch was ahead off his time and in the fifties he had

a setup with a Cornwall/heresy as a centerspeaker with two Khorns .

Does anyone know where I can find the schematics to connect my system like Paul Klipsch did ?

I give you thanks in advance

Klipschfan from The Netherlands.

[PrestonTom]

Sure, search the threads for "center channel" or "center box".

There are two versions. Each can be made with a handful of resistors and a pot. It will require an extra amp however.

The center channel should be at least a few if not several dB down relative to the L & R speakers. The effect of the center will be subtle in some ways and you will not "obviously hear" its output. However, the effect on the "stability" of the center image will certainly be improved. If you are able to add a compensating time delay since it is closer to the listener it is even better (using a DSP unit like a Behringer etc). Since the center channel is relatively attenuated, don't go crazy about immediately getting a fancy amp and speaker to do this. You can easily experiment with lesser equipment to see if you like the effect first.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[Daddy Dee]

Here's the schematic which illustrates two solutions to derive a center channel.

BTW, very cool avatar.

[colterphoto1]

There's a Dope From Hope on this.

[LarryC]

The center channel should be at least a few if not several dB down relative to the L & R speakers. The effect of the center will be subtle in some ways and you will not "obviously hear" its output. However, the effect on the "stability" of the center image will certainly be improved. If you are able to add a compensating time delay since it is closer to the listener it is even better (using a DSP unit like a Behringer etc).

Many of us heard the outstanding 3-channel array (2 K-horns and a Belle) in Indy last month. Bob Riff attached a PDF in this thread which said they had added "a few milliseconds" of delay to the center channel, and lowered its output by 12 db.

The only delay was to the center channel speaker as a whole. No delay was added within either the K-horns or the Belle. Some thought the sound was as good as any at the Pilgrimage.

[Daddy Dee]

Larry,

About what was the distance between the Khorns on this three channel setup in Indy?

I've wondered in my three channel experimentation if my room was of such size that two Khorns did quite nicely on their own. Since it wasn't wide enough to leave a "hole" in the middle, filling in with the center channel wasn't especially helpful.

[PrestonTom]

The center channel should be at least a few if not several dB down relative to the L & R speakers. The effect of the center will be subtle in some ways and you will not "obviously hear" its output. However, the effect on the "stability" of the center image will certainly be improved. If you are able to add a compensating time delay since it is closer to the listener it is even better (using a DSP unit like a Behringer etc).

Many of us heard the outstanding 3-channel array (2 K-horns and a Belle) in Indy last month. Bob Riff attached a PDF in this thread which said they had added "a few milliseconds" of delay to the center channel, and lowered its output by 12 db.

The only delay was to the center channel speaker as a whole. No delay was added within either the K-horns or the Belle. Some thought the sound was as good as any at the Pilgrimage.

Thnaks Larry, I had seen those notes and they are interesting.

As I understand it the delay is added so the wave fronts will simultaneously arrive at the listener. If the cabinets are along the wall (a straight line) then the center would arrive first (if there was no delay) if the cabinets were at a constant radius (along an arc) then all the wavefront would arrive simultaneously and no compensatory delay would be required. Of course any added delay would be to the center channel.

Regarding the degree of attenuation: there are different schools of thought on this. I suspect the greater degree of attenuation is being recommended in order to minimize the amount of lobing that occurs when multiple sources are "nearby" in terms of wavelength. The lobing will cause peaks and dips in the spectrum when the multiple wavefront are adding in-and-out-phase. This will always occur with multiple drivers. However when the levels are not equal, then the ratio between the peaks and dips will be correspondingly minimized. I was surprised that they are recommending as much as 12 dB, but live and learn.... With that amount of attenuation the effect on "stabilizing" the center (or minimizing the "hole-in-the-middle") will also be decreased. On the min-boxes the attenuation can be adjusted by the resistor pot. So you can adjust to taste.

My experience was with two K-Horns and a Heresy (later replaced with a Cornwall) as a center speaker. The K-horns were separated by about 20 ft (with the listener 10 ft back). It was a nice improvement. I worry that sometimes folks don't try this because they think that a fancy speaker or amp is an absolute requirement. It is not. More folks should give this a try, especially since mini-boxes are easy to build and DSP units can be obtained cheaply (and still have adequate sonics). The improvement will be superior to many of the other mods that folks typically recommend.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[colterphoto1]

It was about 3 ms at the Pilgrimage. Use roughly 1 ms per foot (difference in distance from listener between mains and center)

Arranging three speaker equidistant from listener along an arc would overcome this. So if you have Cornwalls or Heresies give it a try- no digital delay needed.

With Khorns that would mean placing the center speaker BEYOND the walls of the room. Thus the delay and reduced volume help make the center meld more seamlessly with the mains.

[Islander]

With Khorns that would mean placing the center speaker BEYOND the walls of the room. Thus the delay and reduced volume help make the center meld more seamlessly with the mains.

None of that digital junk for me! Where's my chainsaw? I'll set the Heresy II into the wall!

[LarryC]

Michael, Dee wanted to know the separation of the two K-horns, do you know or who we would ask? I can't pull up the number from the back of my mind. Something like 25', but I'm not sure.

Dee, I heard Mark Kauffman once say a center speaker isn't needed untill K-horns are 17' or more apart, FWIW. I wouldn't know, my corners are a ridiculous 11' apart and I don't have room to add a Belle.

[jamesV]

About what was the distance between the Khorns on this three channel setup in Indy?

Dee,

If I remember right I counted the ceiling tile and they were 20' apart.

James

[colterphoto1]

That's a big conference room, that sounds a little narrow to me. I'd guess closer to 24-28 feet but could be wrong. Maybe Trey or Prof Thump could measure for us.

If the wall were 24 feet wide, then the distance Khorn-Belle would be 12 feet. If a listener were 12 feet from that front wall the hypotenuse of that triangle (Khorn-listener) would be approximately 16 feet. Therefore the difference in timing in ms would account for the 4 foot difference.

[Coytee]

my corners are a ridiculous 11' apart and I don't have room to add a Belle.

Could you add a bose?

[6]

[JJkizak]

12 db down? Why bother at all with the center channel. This will not work in my system. Yuk. I want to hear the center, not pretend to hear it.

JJK

[artto]

I've used the center channel circuit for 20+ years. The best level often needs to be adjusted according to the recording. -3db is a good starting point. Analogue recordings, especially LP, tend to have more crosstalk and may require more reduction.

Nowadays my MAC MX130 has a center channel output so I just use that for everyday use and adjust the level of the center channel from the power amp (one channel of Crown D60).

[Daddy Dee]

About what was the distance between the Khorns on this three channel setup in Indy?

Dee,

If I remember right I counted the ceiling tile and they were 20' apart.

James

Thanks James.

[WMcD]

In my view, the 12 dB down setting is not so odd.

You could be twice as close to the center compared to the sides. A doubling of distance is worth 6 dB. (You're painting the sound over four times the area.)

Recording differ. Probably another 6 dB down is necessary with speakers equally spaced from the listener.

Wm McD

[colterphoto1]

Michael, Dee wanted to know the separation of the two K-horns, do you know or who we would ask? I can't pull up the number from the back of my mind. Something like 25', but I'm not sure.

Dee, I heard Mark Kauffman once say a center speaker isn't needed untill K-horns are 17' or more apart, FWIW. I wouldn't know, my corners are a ridiculous 11' apart and I don't have room to add a Belle.

Larry, in my experience talking with dozens of happy Klischorn listeners, the best stereo imaging is found with the listener some .7-.8 x the front wall width. In your room this would indicate sitting a mere 8 feet from the front wall. This would have you about midway on your coffee table as I recall. With your compromised binaural hearing, imaging is much less an issue for you. I know you are perfectly content sitting on the side facing sofa or the single chair approx 13 feet from the Khorn wall. No Belle needed, besides the requisite matching amplification would be a deal-breaker and then you'd really be out of real estate!

[LarryC]

Michael, you're exactly right, and I think that frustrates some of my 2-eared visitors. I think the corners at the Heritage demo at Indy were 25 to 30 feet apart (not just 20), and the "sweet spot" was back in the second or third row of listeners! Getting the exact spot didn't seem to be that critical, either.

Although they are much less alive than Klipsch, a friend of mine has an pair of B&W older 805's on stands, and those speakers disappear as they fan out the music in a nicely spread-out soundstage. I don't think there is a sweet spot with those, and they are very musical as well as reasonably detailed. The spread-out characteristic, which I likened to a larger mid horn, is what I heard and liked in Speaker B in the comparison test.

So, whatever disadvantages B&W had, I think the 802's had some real pluses. It's interesting that Klipsch had those for the Pilgrimage! I wonder if they're going to test, evaluate, and see if what they learn can add to the evolution of the product line.

Good observations BTW.