ALK modular networks AP12 and ES

[psg]

I must have been living under a rock. I never realised that Al K made these modular networks. I always hear about the Extreme Slope and the Universal, but not about the others (AP)

I wanted to buy a Universal kit but wondered about the mod people are doing to the A or AA to move the crossover point to the CT-125 tweeter lower, to 4000 Hz. I asked Al whether he modded the Universal for that. He said he didn't but recommended the combination of AP12-500 and ES4000. At $239 + $425 + shipping + taxes into Canada, that would be more than twice the prices of the Universal A kit.

Has anyone compared the Univeral A to such an ALK combo?

[mark1101]

Yes. I owned a set of AP12-350 and used them on Khorns. I then upgraded to the full ESNs. The APs were excellent. They were a significant step up from the ALK Jr. I had previously which is similar to the universals. The last time I looked the AP series were the best bang for the buck from ALK Engineering. Confused? Don't worry. All the ALK networks are very good. Your speakers, system, and listening habits should be the main factors in deciding which series is best for you. What type of music do you listen to most?......what preamp and amps are you using?

[psg]

Type of music? trio jazz at realistic levels (i.e. not very loud at all) mostly, but any musics with drums at louder levels (such that they sound realistic too). I also use the system for HT, at typically around 7 to 10 dB below reference.

Amp and premap? Don't laugh, but I'm quite satisfied with my h/k avr-325 HT receiver.

I am also happy with the sound I get from my recapped AA networks and CT-125 tweeters. The upgrade to new networks is to see what all the fuss is about.

Note that Al recommended the AP12-500 because he though I had La Scalas, and corrected that to the AP12-350 for Klipschorns. The 350 Hz frequency cutoff is different from the old 400 Hz on the AA (and from 450 Hz on current models). Is there a rationale for it?

[Deang]

The AP12-350 is for the AK-3 series of Klipschorns that have the low pass filter in the bass bin -- you need that part of the filter to use the network.

We all like different things, but I wasn't very impressed with the ESNs when I tried them, and neither was Craig -- who also took a shot at them. Unless you play at what I consider to be relatively high SPLs -- the sound just doesn't bring the goods. The bass sounds fat and sloppy, and the hair trigger transients are for the most part gone. The overall presentation is just too laid back -- and if you sit kind of close you can hear the sounds move around between the drivers in the top section, which I found particularly annoying. My opinion is that you need to have some overlap between the drivers.OTOH, I'm just one guy with an opinion and plenty sure do seem to like them a lot.

[mark1101]

PSG........what speakers are we talking about? Your Khorns?

[psg]

PSG........what speakers are we talking about? Your Khorns?

Yes. 1978 (recapped-AA) Klipschorns.

Dean, sorry to have this spread over two threads. I think I,d like to build a modded Universal A.

EDIT: I think you are thinking of the AP12-AK3 (which depends on the bass bin electronics). The AP12-350 only duplicates the AK-3 woofer filter.

[mark1101]

PSG, I would agree that a universal or even and ALK JR. (Dean can help with this) would probably be better for you than set of APs or ESNs.

I listen to smooth Jazz every now and then on my ESNs and it sounds fantastic but I am listening at pretty high levels. Not sure of the DB level.....but it is loud. If you are a regular listener at lower volumes you would probably be disappointed with the ESNs. The APs are nice but use the full ESN HF section which has some very good points, but does sound best when pushed.

The advantages of the ESN HF section that would be in either an AP series or full ESN is that it has extreme slopes for the mid/tweeter crossover point which can really reduce the harshness of the HF section of a Khorn. It will also greatly improve clarity and imaging. What you give up are the hair trigger dynamics as Dean mentions. The ESNs basically smooth out the speaker.

I'm not quite sure where Dean got the sloppy bass from. My experience with ESNs......and I've had a few sets and heard many others......is that the ESNs drastically clean up and clarify the bass. In fact that is one of my favorite characteristics about them.....that they produce clean clear bass.

The other thing I like is that they sound better and better the louder you go. There doesn't seem to be a point of breakup or distortion. My room gives up before the speakers do, and with the stock networks it used to be the other way around.

All that said, everyone's mileage will vary based on all the dependencies as we know.......but that's what my experience has been. ESNs built right cost a lot. Most people wouldn't like point very much when you add it all up

I also have a pair of lascalas that have survived a period of a few years where I was going nuts replacing and upgrading networks and changing parts to learn about high end caps and such. Those lascalas still to this day have what I consider to be a special pair of networks and they are ALK JR. built by Dean. They almost have the dynamics of stock networks but with a very clean and more open sound. I can make them break up at high volumes but you really have to push them before you notice it. They are an excellent all around network and would probably satisfy almost everyone. I use them with my lower powered tube amps. I would recommend either the ALK Jr. or ALK universal as all purpose upgrades. Both are similar and would probably be just right for what you are looking for. Dean could explain further.

[psg]

Thanks Mark! Great post!

[Deang]

EDIT: I think you are thinking of the AP12-AK3 (which depends on the bass bin electronics). The AP12-350 only duplicates the AK-3 woofer filter.

Nice catch Peter, you are correct.

Nice post Mark, I pretty much agree with all of it.

Since the room itself plays such a big factor when it comes to bass response, the issue with the ESN bass may be related to it. However, when we had the big shootout down at Daddy Dee's a few years (or more) ago, I thought it sounded too fat and loose. So much so that it also sounded a little disconnected from the top section. By contrast, the Type A's sounded tight, fast, and seemless. Crites heard it too, and we both were using the same kind of words to describe what we were hearing. Well, O.K., I had to put him in a headlock first, and under severe duress I finally got him to choke out a few audiophile words. When I had them in my Klipschorns over here, I heard the same thing. Some of this may be related to what you get used to and what you expect to hear -- but it just didn't sound "right" to me. I've had conversations a plenty with Al about all of this stuff, and his response is always that I've gotten used to accepting what's wrong in the sound and using it as a baseline. Of course, if you ask Al straight out which brings a bigger improvement in the sound -- the ESN's or Trachorns -- he'll tell you to buy a pair of Trachorns, and I agree 100%.

If you are using K-55-M's or the dual phase plug/solder lugged K-55-V's, I would stay with the 6000Hz crossover point. The 4500Hz crossover works well with the single phase plug K-55-V (or new K-55-X) because those drivers are really struggling after 4700Hz. With the better drivers, I prefer to stretch as many octaves through the middle as possible before crossing to the tweeter. With the JBL 2470's in my system I went to 8000Hz before I crossed.

[psg]

Guess I'll have to look at the back of my 1978 Klipschorns to find out.

Many thanks for several very informative posts Dean. Great stuff!

[psg]

No markings on my K-55 that I could see.

Dean, if I may, when I got my Klipschorns 3 years ago, in this thread:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/56396.aspx?PageIndex=7

You suggested: This is probably a good way to go for someone who likes the sound of
the AA, but wants a more refined sound. Think of it as a mini-ALK.

That isn't the original ALK Jr, is it? The two circuits looks more different than the mods in red.

Would you still recommend it for my case? Or, would you stand on your Type-A recommendation made in another thread:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/106587.aspx?PageIndex=3

[mark1101]

Dean, I wouldn't dispute what several of you heard and you mention other dependencies like the room. There are more too as we all know.

For PSG's sake I wil just clarify what I was talking about.

The bigger the overlap at the crossover point such as in the Type A (or other gentle slope) networks, the more you have of the same frequencies that are coming out of 2 different drivers at once. The woofer/squawker and squawker/tweeter each share these overlapped band of frequencies at the crossover points. Since there is no time alignment in these networks the shared frequencies do not come out of each horn at the same time do to different horn lengths. This by definition creates time smear. At lower volumes I perceive this as a nice ambience and the "music coming from everywhere" type of effect. The slopes in the stock networks contribute heavily to the classic Klipsch sound and dynamics. But as you play the music louder and louder the speaker gradually sounds "harsh" to me. Less clear. I perceive a large reduction in clarity once you are really pushing on the volume with the lower sloped networks.

The ESNs eliminate the overlap of frequencies and so there is no time smear. The same infomation is not ever playing out of 2 drivers simultaneously. This is what I perceive as an increase in clarity. When we talk about bass the upper bass sounds clearer, tighter to me especially at louder volumes and this makes sense since none of the same frequencies are playing audibly from 2 drivers simultaneously.....and out of time with one another like in a gentle slope network.

This is of course ultimately solved by using a DSP processor (active crossover) to control both the steepness of the slopes at the crossover point, and also the time delay to each driver. When you have the horns time aligned then you hear a more seemless and clearer sound absent of smear.

The ESNs achieve their clarity by eliminating the overlap altogether.

[jwc]

Just my 2 cents. I have been through a ridiculous amount of networks in the last 3 years. This has been on La scalas, Corwalls, Cornscalas, and several custom speakers with "klipsch-components".

I jack the volume a little. The ESN is the ticket for me. Interesting enough, I find the bass to be the best with the ESN's.....less boomy. The overall detail, imaging, and other goodies are great too. I listen to a lot of funk, old school rap, and metal. There are times when it is jazz or blues. No classical at all.

For lower order networks....just some great mid and tweeter caps. These setups were great with what I considered background music volume. Such as if I'm listening to music and talking to the person beside me. Everyone has different tastes but I can't listed to volume with the 1st order networks. Never heard the AA though. I had a set of A's for a while. Type B's for awhile too.

I heard Mark1101 Khorns when he had the full blown ESNs with pimped out caps. Loved it. Mark might get misty.

jc

[Deang]

Peter, that's the schematic for the ALKJr (initially called the Super AA). It was the one I was paying Al a licensing fee to build. When I started building it with parts that cost more than what he was using in the ALK (Universal Type A), he made me stop. Since I couldn't build it the way I wanted, I just stopped building it altogether.

"These setups were great with what I considered background music volume. Such as if I'm listening to music and talking to the person beside me."

You do talk kind of loud -- but then, you are from the south.

[joshnich]

I have to admit that I am out of my league when the discussion of networks and crossover points are discussed. I was using a Dean Built super aa for sometime and replaced it favor of V-capped network that Dean also built. I am not sure what he did to the crossover points but I believed he lowered the crossover point for the tweeter as I am using the crites tweeter combined with Al's trachorn. What ever was done mkes mine the best sounding belles on the block! Or I should say the best sounding belles on the block for the music that I listen to!

Josh

[mark1101]

The ESNs I had in my Khorns really worked well. I must have gotten lucky because everything just seemed to work perfectly together. That particular ESN design of Al's is a work of art. Once I had those running I never felt like I needed to ever make another change to those speakers. Al tried to talk me into the trachorns but I never tried them. Still, I have yet to hear any trachorns.

[dkalsi]

I have a ESN in my klipchorns + trachorn + JBL 2404H and I have to say, I could not be any happier.

(just sharing my opinion).

[fenderbender]

I now am the lucky benefactor of Marks hard work.....The Klipschorns with ESN are the unbeliveable!!! I've yet to throw an amp at them that doesn't sound great...(I'm sure there are some out there) but even my old cheepo keep in the garage Denon receiver sounds awesome..

only downside ..poor source material is gnarly....I have about 2-3 dozen CD's that I cant listen to anymore.....

[psg]

If you are using K-55-M's or the dual phase plug/solder lugged K-55-V's, I would stay with the 6000Hz crossover point. The 4500Hz crossover works well with the single phase plug K-55-V (or new K-55-X) because those drivers are really struggling after 4700Hz. With the better drivers, I prefer to stretch as many octaves through the middle as possible before crossing to the tweeter. With the JBL 2470's in my system I went to 8000Hz before I crossed.

After removing a glued-on copper-coloured circle, I can see K-55-V. How do i know whether it's a dual phase plug/solder lugged or single phase plug?

[*-)]

Thanks!!!

[cjgeraci]

Peter, I've had A's, ALK Universals with premium caps, and APT350,ESN 5800s. Out of those three, the only ones that I still listen to on a frequent basis is the last one, the APT/ESN combo (in the front -- I've gone active, which is a different world).

Dean and Mark provide good impressions on how the networks differ in sound. I do most of my listening at moderate to higher volume levels, and therefore, love the ESN top end. However, I think Mark may be right in that you might prefer the A's or even the Universals to the ESN top due to your lower level listening and jazz, which tens to have less going on at once as opposed to some more complex sounding music.

Dean and Al are also correct that Trachorns are a much more dramatic improvement in sound versus a network change.

Good luck in your quest.

Carl.