wsu99999 Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 I have a quick question - I am looking to upgrade my caps from their stock caps. My LaScalas were built in the mid 70's and use AA Crossovers. I went on Ebay and found someone selling a complete set for the AA's and they are the same caps that Bob uses in his crossovers (Sonicaps). The person and I got to talking and he (or she) told me that when they upgraded their caps, the sonicaps sounded noticably worse than the original caps and that I should use caution when upgrading. They told me that I should spring for more expensive caps as that is what they had to do. Has anyone upgraded their caps and noticed a degrade in sound quality? Basically, what I don't want to do is spend money if I'm going to get lower sound quality. Please give me advice. Also, There is a very nice member on the forum that has some solen caps that I'm about to buy. Any thougts on these? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 I may be able to help. I've done many cap upgrades on my Heritage speakers and have tried many different types of caps. If your Lascalas are from the mid 70s and have the original caps in them, you are ready for an upgrade. The caps go resistive. The tweeter output drops gradually over the years and you probably haven't even noticed it. What you will notice with an upgrade is that it will more than likely sound like you got a new set of tweeters. Almost any reasonable quality metalized film or film and foil cap will surely bring the tweeter output up and improve the overall high end sound from what you have now. Solens are a budget cap but will work. A Sonicap is a good sounding cap for the money and a decent step up from a Solen. Many on this board are using Sonicaps and it seems to have become sort of a standard upgrade cap for the Heritage networks. You could of course spend more money and get into the more exotic brands but a Sonicap is a good cap and gives you a good bang for the buck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wsu99999 Posted August 7, 2008 Author Share Posted August 7, 2008 Mark, I sincerely appreciate your reply. I guess my question is why would this person who is trying to sell something tell me I would probably be better off buying something more expensive. I guess that's all I'm trying to figure out. They told me that when they upgraded (using these exact caps) that the sound quality was worse than prior to the upgrade (which was from a crossover from the 70's that hadn't been upgraded). To be honest, I'm quite happy with the sound from my LaScalas - to me, I think they sound perfect and can hear no degration in the sound. The only reason I'm interested in upgrading the caps is because I've heard the members of the forum rave about the significant changes in their sound after the update. What I don't want to have happen is upgrade the caps and hear a change for the worse. Do new caps come bad sometimes? Maybe this person got bad caps from the get go? If that's the case, then I would be buying bad caps too. Is that possible? Would I be better off buying them new? The condition of the caps are as follows... 3x of them were installed and have under 50 hrs on them. The other 3 are untouched. They only did one crossover and the sound wasn't as good as the untouched one. They didn't bother doing the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 It is inexpensive enough IMHO to experiment a little here. I say that because you mention that you are satisfied with the lascalas as are. From experience my predicition is that you will here a marked improvement by upgrading the caps. I would not EVER buy a bunch or a set of used caps to recap a set of matched networks. I consider recapping or changing drivers serious business because matching is very important.......at least to me. As I mention it is inexpensive enough to purchase an upgrade kit for your AAs from BEC to hear what improvements can be had. Bob will sell you matched sets of components so you can be sure each speaker will perform the same. You can upgrade one network and test against the stock one to hear what has changed. My guess is that you will promptly upgrade the second one. I would eliminate all worries by purchasing a known reliable upgrade kit. I really can't comment on why someone found an upgrade to sound worse than what they previously had. There is a lot of missing information. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 When I hear about all these claimed capacitor nuances, I can't help but think of all the tolerancing issues with the drivers and even other components in the crossover. You're lucky if your drivers are within 2dB of one another and then with even 2% parts in a xover you could see 1dB swings here and there. If you've ever sat down with the measurements, you might be surprised just how much a dB or two can really mess with the voicing of the speaker. And in the end, different speaker voicings will compliment different styles of music differently...which I think is more responsible for the wide polar extremes in preferences. For what it's worth, electrolytic caps kinda suck for a loudspeaker application since the behavior of a loudspeaker crossover gets impacted heavily by electrolytic non-linearities. Film caps have better behavior and so will often lead to lower distortion in speakers (especially at higher drive levels). I think moving to a film cap is a sane change to make, but I would never come close to investing a lot of money in caps unless you're gonna bust out some measurements to first deal with all the tolerances built into the drivers and existing network components. (for what it's worth, i say bust out the measurements because it can be terribly difficult to do by ear, but that's not to say the audible correlation isn't there). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted August 8, 2008 Share Posted August 8, 2008 My original Klipsch crossovers had the actual measured capacitance written in crayon on the caps. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean5340 Posted August 8, 2008 Share Posted August 8, 2008 I am very happy with my Sonicaps. Would do it again. Sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted August 8, 2008 Share Posted August 8, 2008 Just go with BEC's cheap fix. It did wonders for my late 70's KHorns. There's already too much thinking on this thread. As stated previously, you will find out what you've been missing and realize that the "perfect" sound you currently have is less than you think when it comes to the high-end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted August 8, 2008 Share Posted August 8, 2008 "electrolytic caps kinda suck for a loudspeaker application since thebehavior of a loudspeaker crossover gets impacted heavily byelectrolytic non-linearities" There shouldn't be any electrolytic caps in 70's era heritage crossovers. electrolytic caps were used in later years as shunt capacitors, but never inline. As far as the out of tolerance's of the componets in the system, the overall system becomes the baseline, once you change one componet such as a capacitor in both systems, recognizing the changes from the baseline due to a capacitor change shouldn't require instruments if we are talking changes such as going from paper and oil to film coated poly, or paper and oil to film coated metal, etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted August 8, 2008 Share Posted August 8, 2008 I replaced the original "metal-can" caps in my 1974 La Scalas with BEC's Sonicaps and was very pleased with the improved clarity that was immediately noticeable. Soon after, I also replaced the stock K-77 tweeters with BEC's CT125 tweeters and found a further improvement in the sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmillerc5 Posted August 8, 2008 Share Posted August 8, 2008 Just to echo Islander's positive comments on Bob's sonicaps... I just replaced the original crossovers on my '75 LaScalas two weeks ago with Bob's TypeAA/A crossovers (sonicaps). I did an A to B comparison immediately after replacing only one crossover before replacing both. It was an extreme difference in sound between the original and new caps. In simple terms, it was as though there was a blanket thrown over the LaScala with the original caps. Now my LaScalas are singing again and I can't stop listening to them. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryO Posted August 8, 2008 Share Posted August 8, 2008 Many people are sensitive to certain sounds from a speaker. It's possible the upgraded Sonicaps brought back to life certain sounds he didn't like or was not used to. Poor quality amplification can be hidden by weak or bad caps. When changed (if properly done) it may have brought out more of what he didn't like. You gotsta match it all up fer it to sounds good. As far as selling you something more expensive, well....Some people think more is better. For the money the Sonicap is a very good cap. I've been using them for a few years now and I've yet to see a bad one. I can't say the same thing about Dayton or Solen. Quality control seems to be a small issue but still an issue. Harry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SET12 Posted August 8, 2008 Share Posted August 8, 2008 I have a quick question - I am looking to upgrade my caps from their stock caps. My LaScalas were built in the mid 70's and use AA Crossovers. I went on Ebay and found someone selling a complete set for the AA's and they are the same caps that Bob uses in his crossovers (Sonicaps). The person and I got to talking and he (or she) told me that when they upgraded their caps, the sonicaps sounded noticably worse than the original caps and that I should use caution when upgrading. They told me that I should spring for more expensive caps as that is what they had to do. Has anyone upgraded their caps and noticed a degrade in sound quality? Basically, what I don't want to do is spend money if I'm going to get lower sound quality. Please give me advice. Also, There is a very nice member on the forum that has some solen caps that I'm about to buy. Any thougts on these? I have Forte 1's with extensive modifications that would be considered extreme by some. I did not change the basic design because I felt the balance was good to begin with. http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159340 IMO the finest network that I have heard with LaScala's is the ALK network. http://www.alkeng.com/klipsch.html I can't listen long to any stock LaScala as the balance is no where near to my taste. The advantage to this network is that it allowsyou to adjust the mid's to your taste which really does absolute wonders IMO for many areas of the LaScala's sound one of which is the perception of warmth which I highly prize in this digital age. I support Bob's work but when it comes to LaScala's ALK is where its at for me. You can build these yourself for half of what it would to purchase them. The plans are at the ALK site. There are two interesting sites for cap sound. http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html http://www.tempoelectric.com/caps.htmAnd all I can tell you is every component change that I have done (caps,inductors,autotransformers) has been very audiable. Then again I don't have much in the way of the signal path!Good Luck [Y] SET12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wsu99999 Posted August 11, 2008 Author Share Posted August 11, 2008 Why don't people use caps like these anymore? I saw some older updated AA's and A's that used these types of caps. Don't they work as well? http://www.alliedelec.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?SKU=5910007&MPN=27L6095&R=5910007&SEARCH=5910007&DESC=27L6095 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryO Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 There's probably some good old stock left laying around but the newer ones I've ordered tested out all over the place and many were noisy. It's like they quit caring about quality control. Maybe it's just me but I think it's the manufacturer producing below standard parts. Harry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 There's probably some good old stock left laying around but the newer ones I've ordered tested out all over the place and many were noisy. It's like they quit caring about quality control. Maybe it's just me but I think it's the manufacturer producing below standard parts. What was your procedure for measuring the capacitance and the noise? Do you happen to have any ESR data too? Did you notice any tolerances exceeding those specified in the datasheet? http://www.alliedelec.com/Images/Products/Datasheets/BM/GENERAL_ELECTRIC_CAPACITOR/GE_CAP_5917025.PDF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryO Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Mike, All testing was done on the EDS 88A Cap analyzer, B&K 881 and an analog multimeter to make sure of drainage. Some of the tolerances ran up to 15% and high ESR was indicated by the meters. Just simple basic tests that only take seconds. I've found the same thing with Dayton and Solens also. Harry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Why don't people use caps like these anymore? I saw some older updated AA's and A's that used these types of caps. Don't they work as well? http://www.alliedelec.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?SKU=5910007&MPN=27L6095&R=5910007&SEARCH=5910007&DESC=27L6095 Just a heads up, those in your link are METALLIZED FILM, not paper an oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I have been reading that many of the US capacitors are made by RTI Electronics, in Anaheim, CA. They are regarded as high quality. It was speculated Soniccaps were a product of theirs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironsave Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Just to echo Islander's positive comments on Bob's sonicaps... I just replaced the original crossovers on my '75 LaScalas two weeks ago with Bob's TypeAA/A crossovers (sonicaps). I did an A to B comparison immediately after replacing only one crossover before replacing both. It was an extreme difference in sound between the original and new caps. In simple terms, it was as though there was a blanket thrown over the LaScala with the original caps. Now my LaScalas are singing again and I can't stop listening to them. :-) +1. This is an accurate way to describe the difference..... I actually did an A-B comparison when I replaced my Heresy caps. The Sonicap speaker became more smooth; and increased clarity on the mid highs/ highs. It is something you too; can do. Just change them in one speaker and compare for a few hours to a few days. Worst case; you can always go back to the old caps. (You won't). [] Good Luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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