Houston, East Texas Audiophiles: The Battle of the Titans date is...

[Mallette]

Chef Rick expounds on the finer points of pecan grilling to the PAW.

[Mallette]

The hard core: Danny, Rigged25, Tubesnhorns, Pauln, and Old Timer in the Klipschorn room.

[Mallette]

OK, down to business...just got Old Timer out the door a few minutes ago so we are officially adjourned.

I am going to confine myself to a few observations and generalizations and leave the specifics to the rest. However, no question the Klipschorn remains the undisputed heavyweight champion. Unfortunately, my desires for a single source were thwarted by a hum I could not resolve when I threw a line across from the Music Room to the Family TV Room that now houses the Fraziers. That meant we could not do the simultaneous comparison I had envisioned. I think a humbucker in the line would have fixed it...but I did not have one. I'll have to fix that.

Anyway, that meant we had to use different tables, CD players, etc and that muddies the issue. Nonetheless, the overall thoughts were pretty much as you would expect from the Klipsch Klan: the speed and transparency of horns always wins. Some felt the Fraziers did not have enough room, at least one felt they should be in a more confined space, and at least a couple did not care much for the Soundcraftsman PCM800. I may put all that on the market and see what I can trade it for. Most agreed the Frazier's went deeper but at least one felt it was not as tightly defined as them big 'ol horns.

As always in such things, I got valuable input about my systems and learned a lot.

I have only had the Elevens for about 3 months and feel I need to work on the playback chain and the placement. I think that all agreed the imaging of the Klipschorn's was pretty extraordinary given the rather smallish space they are in (13X15), and that is always an edge. Also, we stayed mainly with the Super PAS4i and ST-70, which is pretty formidable, and the VPI/Grado was considered overmatched to the Rotel 3000/SME/Stanton so there is much that may have made a true A/B pretty hard. Lots to chew on, much to work on. That's what I love about this hobby...constant quality improvement!

I can speak for the PAW and myself in saying it was an honor and a pleasure having you all, and we'll have to do it again.

Now, I'll leave it to the rest to post mortem.

Dave

[RIGGED25]

Thanks for having us over Dave, it was a great experience and your hospitality was second to none.

Next time, I'll make sure to have more grains of sand in the top half of the hourglass.

BTW, my hearing has improved-the KHorns blew the wax right out of them. lol

My first Khorn experience was a memorable one-thanks Dave.

Now I'm on the hunt again....

RIGGED

[Marvel]

We need more pics with names attached! It's always great to put a face with a name and all the craziness they happen to expound.

Bruce

[LarryC]

And what's a PAW?

[pmsummer]

Looks like a great time was had by all. Sorry I couldn't make it, but then...

...I'd have missed this.

[Mallette]

And what's a PAW?

My dearly beloved Perfect Audiophile Wife.

I'll try to annotate one of the pix as to who is who tomorrow.

Dave

[oldtimer]

I'm a bit tired from dodging the police on the drive back home, so I'll probably add any deep thoughts later (deep? ok, probably not). What I can say right now is that Dave and his family were extremely gracious hosts, and an all around pleasure to be around. Thanks again, it was a great time, and really nice to meet all who were there.

[Cody_Mack]

OK, Dave, I will add my feeble review. I really didn’t listen to the 11s as much as I wanted; chef duties got in the way, and that is OK as I wanted to be sure the infamous SRBs lived up to the hype. IMO, they did. Thanks for the compliments.

The first time I went upstairs when the 11s were playing, I stood in the rear in a corner next to the stair. They sounded very muddy in the mid-bass and I didn’t hear much better in all the sessions, no matter the listening position. The mids and highs sounded very good but not great. I was hyped up to hear the piano piece, but was slightly disappointed. Again, seems like the muddy mid-bass dominated, and the note wouldn't hang on like it should. The only time I heard some good clean low end was on the organ piece. Now, as you have mentioned, maybe you should suspect the amplifier first. I am not at all familiar with the Soundcraftsmen amp. You mentioned maybe it is the weak link.

I would also play around with placement. You may not have a lot of choices with their size. I think I would at least pull them out from the wall some. With that design, maybe they are not all that much corner dependent. Maybe if you moved them out and a little closer together and toed in slightly; more out into the room and a straight at you approach. Again, I may not have a clue what I am talking about. [*-)] Is there a slotted port on the back?

Comparatively the Khorns are effortless in everything they do, and maybe much less system and amp dependent. On the vinyl, you have a very nice setup on the horns. It was not a fair fight, really.

Thanks for hosting us. Was nice to meet the other attendees. We need to do more of these. I attend the occasional Bottlehead meet but those alternate between Houston, San Antonio, Austin and Dallas. There are several Forum members in the Houston area. Let us hear from you if you are interested in audio get-togethers.

Rick

[pauln]

Dave and family were excellent hosts as always, it was great to meet people, and Rick's burgers were amazing.

Keeping in mind that I am used to my low power SETs...

I was expecting good things from the Fraziers, they were in a bigger room with a pretty good placement. The Klipschorns were in a smaller room with record shelves and equipment tables just a few inches from their sides.

We started with piano music on the Fraziers. The first thing I noticed was that the very loud parts seemed to congest and haze out a little. Maybe this is due to the amp (Soundcrafters). The sound was better on the quiet parts, but the low end sounded a little "off", a little different from a piano.

The Klipschorns played the loud parts of the piano without any signs of strain and the tone of the low end sounds had the sound of wood, like a piano.

The organ music showed a big difference in the low end. The Fraziers I felt did not control the lowest frequencies while the Khorns keep firm all the way down.

The Debussy piano piece was interesting to me. On the Fraziers I was annoyed by the performance of the artist - the pauses between phrases seemed too long and affected - I kept wanting him to get on with playing the song. In this piece I noticed a variation in something with the high end. I think the geometry of the Frazier mids and tweets were part of this. There are four mids placed at the corners of a rectangle, vetically about 6-8 inches, horizontally about 18-20 inches (I'm estimating); but I was imagining that the increases on volume made the spaced apart mids (and pair of tweeter spaced apart about 8-10 inches) seem to lose focus.

The Khorns sounded better, and I also forgot all about feeling annoyed at the performer playing the pauses too slowly - it was just beautiful music that sounded right. Even in the smaller room with the close-in furnishings so near to the sides of the Khorns they still sounded great. I've read about people unloading their Khorns onto the middle of the bare concrete floor of their garage and hooking them up to find they sound great even there... I almost believe it.

I also brought some records to scare everyone. I was curious to hear the low end of The American Metiphysical Circus (Joe Byrd and the Field Hippies), and Steve Hillage's Fish Rising, both old trippy sounding stuff full of Moogs and Mellotrons and delightfully disorienting weirdness from the past.

Also brought a cello concerto performed by Rostropovich which the Khorns really seemed to enjoy belting out. Oldtimer thought he recognised it, my have actually performed it many years ago in school.

I vote for moving the Khorns out to the bigger space - might have to make a false corner for the left side, though.

Thanks Dave, a fine evening of music with a nice crowd.

[Mallette]

Several have weighed in, so I'll comment since the Klipsch Klan will probably be pulling the pin shortly.

I've not read anything I do not concur with. I don't think that even under the best of conditions and equal sources the Elevens are going to top Klipschorns, certainly not to Klipsch Klan ears!

However, I think they can get closer than they did. Some work on placement and mid/high levels (which are adjustable) may help, and I am think that Soundcraftsman gear is headed for Audiogon to raise money for another ST-70. Aside from that, I want to invest in a humbucker to see if I can run that line out from the music room without the hum. Any comparison using different sources is subject to error.

What I would like to do is take care of the above, then perhaps have another gathering to mess with placement and mid/tweeter levels...THEN do the comparision again.

Thanks to Paul for letting me borrow the Field Hippies and Fish... That's really cool stuff and I either missed it or was incapacitated at the time they came out originally. I'd like to say it brings back memories, but as Toklas said "Anyone who claims to remember the 60's wasn't there..."

Also to Danny for the Zydeco. It kept the ladies tapping while they watercolor painted by the pool on Sunday.

Thanks again to the guys who came, especially Old Timer making that drive down from Denton...come back again and bring the wife!

Dave

[Jeff Matthews]

Now that we are discussing gear, I will say I am somewhat familiar with Soundcraftsmen. My brother has a SC amp, and I used to have a SC pre-amp. They make good stuff. I would not think it to be a weak link in the chain, especially considering you were comparing it to a Panasonic driving the KHorns.

Here is my impression overall regarding sources...... Maybe I am a bit too much of a loudness show-off, but the source was not capable of driving the KHorns to their potential. This may be because you listen to it more moderately and just did not grab all the power that was otherwise available, but I did see you crank the volume all they way to the end at one point. It was loud, but you have plenty of room left in the KHorns to drive them harder if you desire.

Had I brought my Crown amp and we tinkered with that, and had you given me leeway to let her rip (which I know can be a touchy matter), you would have heard a whole new dimension of what those KHorns can do. I would predict you would be surprised at the authority of the low-end from driving them with an amp like my Crown. Next time, I will bring my Crown. It's amazing what you can get out of it, especially given that they are just older (but very good quality) PA amps you can pick up for a few hundred bucks.

I had fun and would like to do it again.

[Mallette]

Jeff:
Hmm... I suppose I was being nice. Not sure why with a room full of hornheads. I've driven them to 106db on several occasions, but that is about as far as I go in deference to hearing damage, and even then usually only for a short time. I am certainly not worried about the 'horns as long as they are fed clean power, and either of those amps has an excess of headroom for them to reach pretty intolerable levels in that room. Bring the Crown next time and let's play LOUD!

Peak was about 96db.

Part of my thinking was that this wasn't about brute force, which was also why I was using piano, strings, and such...though the Fox pipe organ is pretty much raw power.

I also cranked Midnight Oil at one point for a minute or so, but I am not sure you were there yet.

What I need to do is to more clearly open things wide up to whatever those attending want to do. I certainly trust the Klipsch Krowd to know what they are doing, but perhaps a really clear statement of "It's open season, break out your source material and do what makes you feel good" would break down a few inhibitions. This is only about my 4th gathering and I learn every time. One of these days I'll get it right. Certainly having Rick doing the chef duties was on the right track... []

As to the PCM800, I had read good things about it on the web. However, I still have my doubts. I am no fan of SS and prefer the Panny or tubes, but I HAVE heard very good ones.

I am going to do some serious analytical listening, especially to the Elevens and that system. I am pretty happy with the Music Room K'horn system, and that seemed to be reflected as well by the crowd, but I think the Elevens need some tweaking.

Dave

[Jeff Matthews]

Well, if this is your 4th, I am sure we'll be at it again pretty soon. [][Y]

[Mallette]

When I said I'd keep at it until I got it right, that was a threat!

Dave

[oldtimer]

I had a blast and heard a ton of music with a lot of variety. On the Joe Byrd and the Field Hippies note, there is another Byrd effort called United States of America which I'm told is worth checking out. I hope to be able to hear these systems again after Dave fiddles around with single source connections and dialing in the fraziers, or whenever I'm near. It was a lot of fun and educational. Dave I will do my best to bring my wife, everyone loves her, in contrast...

[Marvel]

I had a copy of the United States of America back when it was released in '68, and contrary to what is shown on the Wiki pages, mine had the cover they show as the later reissue. Mine wasn't the paper sleeve cover but the one with the phots of the group on the front. I was always intrigued by the8 string fretless bass that was used (four courses of two).

While I was working at a local tv station, one night we took the version of the Star Spangled Banner (actually called National Emblem on the LP) and used in for the signoff. It doesn't comprise the whole song, but just the intro and the end. Since most people are asleep when it comes on, we thought it would be funny.

Bruce

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_United_States_of_America_(album)

[Mallette]

Brian, the PAW and I will be looking forward to that visit immensely.

Marvel: "National Emblem" by E.E. Bagley has about 10 or 12 notes from the SSB in it. Played it many times back in my band days. It shows up in a lot of things including some iterations of "Tiger Rag." Military bands often use it for retiring the colors.

Great march.

Dave

[jt1stcav]

Wow, did I ever miss out on the festivities!

I almost bought a Soundcraftsman amp back in '83 while stationed in Germany, but instead chose the 201Wpc Carver M-400t "cube" amp for my JBL L112s. I recall the Soundcraftsmen gear being decent mid-fi stuff...if your amp's up to snuff, then I don't think it's the problem. Then again, maybe it doesn't have that synergy matchup with the Fraziers, or they just need repositioning in your room. Or your Elevens don't like SS amps...wonder how my Baldwin 6L6 amp would've made your Fraziers sound?

Questions that make you go hhhmmmmmm...and not like the hum from your preamp (sorry)!