cure (possible) for auto industry

[Myhamish]

I hope this isn't too political or turns into a flame. It's just an idea. Anyway, here we go.

Let's take the 25 billion that the North American auto industry is looking for and turn it into coupons or rebates (don't laugh). If someone wants to convert a big gas guzzler into a more fuel efficient (made in North America) rebate qualifying vehicle, they could scrap the guzzler and receive a coupon or rebate to buy the new one. So here's the payoff. Gas guzzlers get off the road and the money is used by consumers to purchase new efficient 'green' vehicles. The auto makers could use that money to develop, retool and manufacture the vehicles here in North America, so jobs and unions remain intact and the green aspects are addressed. Peripheral auto industries and support industries would remain intact.

Rebates could be proportionate to the size and age of vehicle scrapped and the green quotient of the vehicle to be purchased. Like I said, it's just an idea.

Slainte. Hamish

[JJkizak]

Your idea will never work. It doesn't screw the little guy and there is no money in it for the rich guy.

JJK

[michael hurd]

What do you consider a gas guzzler? The absolute worst vehicles on the planet for fuel consumption? A garbage truck.

[merkin]

There biggest problem isn't that they can't sell small cars, it's that they lose 1500 dollars on everyone that they make and sell. There cost of production is to high for multiple reasons.

[theplummer]

What ever happened to the owner of a company having to Re-Invest in his company to keep it afloat. Why should the people whom have already consumed the goods have to consume some more without anything in return. I think the owners whom have profited over the years should do a little returning on thier investement to keep it afloat..... or just let it fade of into the sunset.

Let the stockholder decide, not the government.

[mowntnbkr]

Build cars people want to buy, there are alot of people driving vehicles other than american made....why because for some reason, perceived or otherwise, they feel they are better than those made by Ford, GM, or Chrysler. I agree with theplummer BTW.

[BLSamuel]

In principle I agree with letting them fail.

My gut tells me though that doing so could be catastrophic to the economy.

I think the current bail out is supposed to be loans.

I think the US companies have improved the quality dramatically. Not sure if it's true but Chevy claims to have more cars that get 30+ miles per gallon than the competition.

I'm not sure some loans are any worse than or maybe as bad long term as the enormous tax abatements given to the foreign manufactures to build plants in this country. Sure the US companies get those too. But I'm not so sure they did years ago.

And they need to fix the whole management vs labor thing. DOH! They should be on the same side. Way too much BS there for years and years.

Look at it this way. Any profit from a Honda or Toyota goes to Japan. In theory, profits from the US manufacturers stay in the US. I would have no problem with getting rid of the upper management who let things got so bad. That seems to be the biggest problem in most big companies, the executive club members make a killing when the company does good and even when they run it into the ground. That should be criminal.

just my 0.02 cents

off the rant

[ZAKO]

Lets keep the govt. out of regulating the manufactures,,,choking them to death... example,,,GM Opel makes a cheap fine car in Europe..Cant ship here,,doesnt meet govt, regulations here. What does Europe know we dont know???

[merkin]

Look at it this way. Any profit from a Honda or Toyota goes to Japan. In theory, profits from the US manufacturers stay in the US. I would have no problem with getting rid of the upper management who let things got so bad. That seems to be the biggest problem in most big companies, the executive club members make a killing when the company does good and even when they run it into the ground. That should be criminal.

just my 0.02 cents

off the rant

Not all the profit, I probably own some toyota stock in my mutual funds. I'm almost positive that there are foreign investments in the big three. Ownership and profits are spread all over the world. There are auto companies that are making it in the U.S. and overseas. The problem is that these three companys are having a hard time making a widget at a cost that they can sell for a profit. The other companies make a equivalent widget for less money. So when they sell their widget they make money. The big "3" lose money when they make their widget and sell it. If they sell more wigits they just lose more money. They have to get their cost to manufacture the widget down or the price at which they can sell it for up. So why would Joe the consumer buy a higher price widget when he can get one just as good or better at a lower price. Basic buisness, if you can't make a profit you go out of buisness. Giving you money won't help.

If you are going to loan anyone money give it to the ones that can make a profit. They will be able to repay the loan and interest and probably grow. We should probably give toyota and honda the 25 billion and they would expand, hire more workers and improve the economy . They could even hire some of the laid off workers in Michigan, buy more parts from the suppliers. Giving the big "3" 25 billion only delays their death and all the workers will be out of work then anyway. So unless the big 3 and the UAW change their ways the tax payers are just p***ing away 25 billion.

[jacksonbart]

Lets keep the govt. out of regulating the manufactures,,,choking them to death... example,,,GM Opel makes a cheap fine car in Europe..Cant ship here,,doesnt meet govt, regulations here. What does Europe know we dont know???

Well the prices for those Opel’s are much more than the US customers would pay here in the US anyway (Europe has unions galore and trade restrictions, extra taxes, etc), in the US foreign manufacturers operate in non union states. The US makers operate in union states due to thier long history in the US (just read about the UAW, at first it made sense, but its long exceeded its useful life and purpose). You think Toyota would make cars here without concessions. People want to work and companies want to make a profit, shareholders want both and workers should be shareholders. The UAW employee doesn’t contribute to their own healthcare and get a pension. I contribute 1/3 of my pay to the cost of my heathcare and have no pension, my company gives a .50cents on the dollar match up to 6 % retirement plan, which I am happy for and with smart management will work just fine. My company makes money. GM and the rest of the automakers do not because they are saddled with bad contracts. Some American car models do stink IMO, but there are plenty of well designed and well build models made in the US by US manufacturers.

[JJkizak]

Regulations:

bumper height

bumper crash resistance

headlamp height, tailamp height, size, brightness

turn signals, size, brightness

brake light height, size, brightness

polution controls

horn button location and loudness

air bags

anti lock brakes

seat/sholder belts

rear view mirrors, size, shape, warnings

vin placement

window area. windshield safety

parental locks

steering wheel location

gas tank location

rear/front license plate location and lights

AC/ hose quality, fluid

tire pressure labels and location

english manual

english markings on gauges

kilometer/mph speedometer

fuse markings

warning label markings

.50 caliber tailgunner

JJK

[Tom Adams]

Though the idea is noble, you're missing one itsy-bitsy important fact.........

IT'S MY D*AMN TAX PAYER MONEY BEING SPENT!!!!!!!!!!

Though a multitude of issues could be cited as reasons for why the Big 3 are where they are, I'll give you a couple to chew on.

I've read that at factories like Honda and Toyota, it's not uncommon for a Big 3 worker to come in for an interview, see what it's like to work at Honda or BMW or Toyota and decide NOT to apply. Why? Because Honda employees WORK.

And then there's this thing called "Lean" manufacturing that applies to everybody at Toyota to the extent that a worker is required every week to submit at least one idea to make the manufacturing process leaner. Don't make submittals and your performance based pay suffers. At the Big 3, the Unions actually fight against these type initiatives. Case in point was the creation of those job banks as a concession so the UAW would agree to allow productivity enhancements/initiatives by the Company. Simply amazing.......

Personally, I'm in favor of letting them file for bankruptcy and making them re-organize themselves into a modern company capable of competing or just go away. It's survival of the fittess. And GM could start with getting rid of all car lines and just become GM producing a line of cars and trucks. Why does there need to be basically the same car being built by Pontiac, Chevrolet, and Buick????

Tom

[Joe Shmoe]

You're absolutely right on the money there Tom! [Y]

Before any bailout is given there needs to be some kind of salary/wage restructure done. Overpaid workers & overpaid executives. AND something needs to definitely be done about the UAW. What you are saying about "Lean Manufacturing" is absolutely correct. I work in a non-union shop & we also practice the Lean principals. We are also required to submit suggestions monthly and it does eventually impact our annual review. The days of overpaid lazy factory workers is quickly coming to an end.

[kevinmi]

OK, let's hear another opinion. I don't know how many of you who are calling Union workers lazy and overpaid actually work for the big 3. But let me tell you, being one of the rank and file at a G.M. truck plant, you shouldn't believe everything you read in the paper! Sure, there was a time when the big 3 were bloated with too many employees and work was easier. That isn't the case anymore. The American factories have leaned down to keep themselves competitive.

Don't get me wrong--G.M. and the UAW are far from being perfect! But I think we need to look at the REAL problems. Why did the top 3 executives fly down to D.C. in private jets at a cost of $20,000 each? We cannot bleed the workers to death while the execs continue to live high on the hog. I'm sorry to say this, but I beleive that letting the American companies go bankrupt might just be a better solution that bailing them out. I think you will find in the long run that the problems are not with the Union workers, but the obsolete management practices. Toyota and Honda workers in the US are making pretty competitive wages.

Let me tell you a true story about GM management: I recently put in a suggestion at my plant to bring in some work that is being done by an outside company. I could easily incorporate the work being done "outside" into my regular job and save the company thousands of dollars a year at no additional cost to GM. The suggestion was turned down by Management because it was easier to keep on doing things the way they have always been done before.

The sad thing is that even if G.M. were to file bankruptcy and get rid of all the union contracts, they would still fail because of the way they run the company. I worked for Delphi while they filed bankruptcy and claimed the overpaid workers were to blame. 3 years later, after all the highly paid UAW workers left, they are still bankrupt, and the Executives are still getting big bonuses.

That's my rant. I'll let you get back to bashing the little guy for all our problems.

[theplummer]

Regulations:

bumper height

bumper crash resistance

headlamp height, tailamp height, size, brightness

turn signals, size, brightness

brake light height, size, brightness

polution controls

horn button location and loudness

air bags

anti lock brakes

seat/sholder belts

rear view mirrors, size, shape, warnings

vin placement

window area. windshield safety

parental locks

steering wheel location

gas tank location

rear/front license plate location and lights

AC/ hose quality, fluid

tire pressure labels and location

english manual

english markings on gauges

kilometer/mph speedometer

fuse markings

warning label markings

.50 caliber tailgunner

JJK

I must say, yes there are a lot of government regulations imposed on ALL auto manufacturers, not just the big 3. That's why the old style VW Beetle was not available to be bought in America since, What, 1972? Same goes for the Chevy Corvair. Ralph Nader made a stink about how unsafe a vehicle was with the engine in the rear, in a front impact crash.

Fast forward to today, just a few years ago, GM had a car called the GEO Metro. A three cylinder front engine roller skate. The engine was about the size of a modest motorcycle engine. You tell me how that car is any safer than a medium sized Corvair, other than the structure itself.

As for another expensive regulation, AIR Bags, have you ever seen a race car of any kind with air bags in it. There expensive and are a "feel good" safety feature. The only real safety is a well designed roll cage and a good harness. But,,,, Americans are STUPID when it comes to safety. And, sue happy when they could have prevented it themselves. Sooo, the government has to step in and REGULATE in an attempt to save INSURANCE companies money.

Same goes with Antilock brakes. They don't make a vehicle stop faster than a WELL TRAINED DRIVER. In fact, they stop slower, and they hinder a well trained driver from accomplishing "Threshold Braking". Again, Government Regulations desinged to HELP the masses. I say, TEACH PEOPLE HOW TO DRIVE!!! Much more emphisis should be put on SAFE operation, not how to parallel park, or which way to turn your wheels on a hill.

Again, This ain't gonna happen, caus, AARP would throw a huge stink, when its members would no longer be fit to operate, among others, I'm not just picking on the elderly. The fact is MOST people on the road today, have NO IDEA what to do in an emergency driving incident.

I could go on and on, but I'm sure your tired of reading this.

Ohh, I forgot the whole point of this rant, vehicles could be built safer, and cheaper, if regulations weren't so tight. Then let the market decide which cars are safe, after posted crash data has been implimented.

[JJkizak]

theplummer:

Ralph nader's big complaint was the instability of the Corvair in that it would roll over in heavy handling situations. Your information is wrong.

Anti-lock brakes do not function until you are on slippery pavement. On dry pavement they lock up all four wheels in a panic skid. If theydo not function the way I described they need repair. Anti-lock brakes are also used to prevent skids and going out of control during hard acceleration. Watch the 1 hr video supplied when you by a new Corvette. You will crap your pants.Your information is wrong.

Air bags are designed for the consumer who has to have movement in the drivers seat. A race car driver has a 5 point harness and a head restraint with a helmet and a fireproof suit and gloves. He has very limited head movement.This system would be impossible to inforce in civilain life with all the soccer moms trying to use their cell phone. Your information is wrong again.

Actually, you are wrong on everything, totally mis-informed and spreading totally false information to us.

JJK

[CECAA850]

Anti-lock brakes do not function until you are on slippery pavement. On dry pavement they lock up all four wheels in a panic skid. If theydo not function the way I described they need repair. Anti-lock brakes are also used to prevent skids and going out of control during hard acceleration. Watch the 1 hr video supplied when you by a new Corvette. You will crap your pants.Your information is wrong.

JJK

Actually, the antilock mechanism CAN be engaged on dry pavement. I've done it multiple times on properly working cars and trucks. In addition it's the traction control system that keeps you from going out of control on hard accelleration. It utilizes the same sensors as the ABS system to detect individual wheel speed but uses a different controller. In an ABS panic stop the ABS module will regulate pressure to the individual brakes and relieve pressure to the brake that is exibiting lock up. The TRS (traction control system) works just the opposite. It actually applies pressure to the brake of the wheel that is spinning due to hard accelleration or slippery road conditions.

[Tom Adams]

And then there's this thing called "Lean" manufacturing that applies to everybody at Toyota to the extent that a worker is required every week to submit at least one idea to make the manufacturing process leaner. Don't make submittals and your performance based pay suffers.

The name for this is "giving more for less." It has a long history. To understand it, you have to compare it to "giving less for more," which is another practice with a very long history. First, look at "giving less for more" ("GLM" for short) because it is the easiest to understand.

GLM

This is the basic profit motive behind all free enterprise. You try to find the highest or best price someone will pay, for the least amount of content possible. This will assure maximum profit, and maximize your return on investment. If a 3 oz. candy bar will sell for 99-cents, you soon try to see if a 2-1/2 oz bar can sell for 99-cents. That's how people get rich - manipulating the difference between what you GIVE and what you GET. No businessman ever got rich by giving more than he was getting back. Example 2. When Mr. Smith goes into his management to negotiate his new compensation package, he asks for a lot MORE salary, a lot MORE benefits like better healthcare, country club membership, and a leased car. He also asks for MORE staff to help him with his work (so he can do less), and he asks for more vacation which means LESS hours worked. He is, in short, negotiating the difference to "get more and give less." This maximizes his "profit on labor" if you will. Using this technique of GLM, executives end up with $200M annual pay packages. It's very American and very patriotic!

GML

This is the opposite. In this practice, you are asked to "give more and get less." This is the standard historical model for squeezing down working class labor. This is also very American and patriotic - even though it's the opposite of what the other fellow is doing to get rich! In Toyota's case, the workers are being asked to gradually eliminate their own jobs or suffer pay penalties. This persistent downward pressure on pay and benefits and time worked is the classic "dig your own grave" strategy used by the mafia. The bad guy is "trunked" and taken to the woods. They throw him the shovel and ask him to start digging. He will dig his own grave. (He is REALLY giving more and getting less!) For labor classes this GML strategy of screwing yourself is called "the work ethic." For executive labor, it would just be called "stupid."

Let's summarize. When management labor, or the business itself, attempts to Give Less and Get More, it is American and patriotic and aggressive and smart and prudent and necessary and valiant and wise. When line workers attempt to Give Less and Get More it is communistic, socialistic, unpatriotic, anti-free market, slovenly, unethical, lazy, crooked, immoral and disgusting. Got it.

Is there anybody here that has either the horsepower or the connections to call the various heads of state of the major industrialized nations and let them know that if they would just call or write or even pay a visit to Mark Deneen that all our problems would be solved? Does the Office of the President Elect have a contact number??

Sheesh.......here I go again violating Tom's 1st Law.

Mark.....where have you lived or are living or whatever that you come to these wild-*** thoughts/theories/I-don't-know-whats? Seriously, I know of no other on here that leans so heavily towards almost paranoia or conspiracy-est type perspectives. I'm not trying to be rude or a jerk and I apologize if this sounds like name calling, but I just don't get you sometimes. I mean, I read the things you write (and quite often I have to read it twice 'cause, as you know.....I'm an Engineer) and I wonder just what the hell??? Do he & I live in different worlds??

Here's my world Mark.......

I work for a Corporation that builds those jets the Execs went to Washington in (actually, those were rather older models). In my 23 years here, I've done rather well for myself and I make a very comfortable wage. Shoot - some days I can't believe they pay me what they do and believe me I'm nothing special.

I work with people who have only a high school education that make very good money and are working in a technical capacity that would normally require a college degree. And that's because they were given an opportunity. Those folks are nothing special either - they just worked hard and were (are) rewarded rather well.

I have friends in the production shop who, with some overtime, make more per year than A LOT of Engineers. Some years back, we sent a big chunk of our detail and machine parts manufacturing down to Mexico when we opened a plant down there. Employment here went UP! This week's job postings were the lowest in the last 8 months with only 50+ jobs. Most weeks, the list is as long as your arm.

In the last 10 years my company has done a market adjustment of wages 3 times in just about every area of the company in order to retain employees and stay competitive. And I know for a fact, that we're a top paying aircraft company in many areas. We have a $30B+ backlog and our 3Q sales were up over a year ago. We're paying bonuses to employees for referals for qualified applicants. We're spending $800M in expansion projects just in Savannah only. We'll hire probably another 800 folks here and another 300 in Mexico and I'm not sure however many at our other service centers around the world that are also expanding.

Our employees pledged $1M to United Way here and the company matched that. We get bonuses twice a year. We just started down the Lean path and every area that has undergone a Lean initiative has not seen a decrease in employees. And I would assert to you that it's through our Lean initiatives that we can pay for the $800M expansion programs and the funding of our R&D. We're also pretty lean in our management structure and I'm sure that helps.

Maybe we're the exception and not the rule and I'll concede that. But I can tell you that in the 23 years I've been here there has been at least 4 attempts to Unionize. The last time came when this company was at its lowest in terms of sales and employment. And the workers rejected it in LARGE numbers.

So I'm not sure what world you live in. But in my world, I've not seen the picture you try to paint with your prose of some poor down-trotten factory worker being stepped on by Execs on their way to financial bliss (my words not yours). Quite the contrary, our workers have shared rather well in the success of this company. We live in the nicer neighborhoods, drive the nicer cars, and live in the nicer homes. And those who've chosen to stay closer to their family roots have made significant contributions to their immediate & extended families, their neighborhoods, their church, and the community.

So I think we get it Mark. We get the fact that we're a team and management is not out to get us. We get that sending work - not jobs - to Mexico isn't gonna affect us negatively. We get that a Lean initiative will free us from doing non-productive things and allow us to focus more attention on things we need to spend more time on to get right. We get the fact that a $14M software implimentation has allowed us to decrease cycle time in order to speed up production and decrease overtime so that Steve & his wife can attend their kids' softball & soccer games and not be at work so much.

Yeah Mark.....I think I got it. It's too bad you can't see it.

Tom

[jdm56]

Personally, I'm in favor of letting them file for bankruptcy and making them re-organize themselves into a modern company capable of competing or just go away. It's survival of the fittest. And GM could start with getting rid of all car lines and just become GM producing a line of cars and trucks. Why does there need to be basically the same car being built by Pontiac, Chevrolet, and Buick????

Amen! There is something terribly wrong in this country when our "representatives" feel they are at complete liberty to give OUR money to three companies that are all losing money hand over fist.

First of all, it is becoming painfully obvious just who the government works for, and it ain't us taxpayers who elected them and pay them. No, it's the rich and powerful who have their ear by way of campaign contributions and lobbyists. It's no wonder things are in the shape they're in! The system is broke and the only people benefiting are the ones at the top of the food chain. All we little fish do is pay. And we'll keep on paying until we can't pay anymore.

Now as to the bailout itself, I say let the system work! Let'em file Chapter Eleven. How will giving them money save them? (And it will be a gift, because I don't think there's a chance in the world of them being able to pay it back.) All the payoff will do is let the top dogs line their pockets while they slash jobs. And I guarantee you they'll start a slash and burn campaign that would make Sherman blush -as soon as they get the 25 billion taxpayer dollars in their greedy little hands.

Another issue I think this whole mess raises is whether or not any business should be allowed to get so big that it "can't be allowed to fail" for fear of how it will impact the overall economy. I think we're seeing a good case being made, right before our eyes, of why they should not.

[jacksonbart]

Here is an example of foreign craftmenship. The driver just driving down the road and the bumper falls off and messes up the back end. I'll take an American car, Thank you.