Need some legal/auto

[oscarsear]

...advice. I've got a 2004 Range Rover with around 70K miles on it. It has always been serviced as scheduled. That model had a BMW engine in it. Several weeks ago it started a slow leak of water in the front of the engine. I took it to the Land Rover dealer and was advised that the water pump was failing. I authorized the replacement work. which is being covered under an extended warranty. Yesterday I am told that they broke a bolt removing the water pump. The bolt is broken inside the motor block and they must expose the entire front of the engine to access it for removal and re-tapping. All of this at my expense - no warranty coverage - $1,100.00. They tell me the bolt was corroded and it's failure not their fault. I was given the choice to approve the work or come get the vehicle in its current state of disassembly. The vehicle is not used off road and has no corrosion damage anywhere. What are my options in this situation?

[TNRabbit]

Bullsh*t; I doubt you have to expose the entire front of the engine to drill out a broken bolt.

I call bullsh*t on their claim it's not their fault, too. HOWEVER, it all depends on how your extended warranty reads & laws in your state.

where are you located?

[oscarsear]

I am in Idaho and I am calling BS on this. Not that they really care about the ruckus I am making (so far). I have contacted Range Rover North America also. Frankly I think the either torqued the bolt at an angle or turned it the wrong direction. But there is no valid reason I know of for that bolt to have broken. I should add that the dealer is located in the state of Washington. I live right on the border near Coeur d'Alene.

[Andy W]

Complain. Go higher up. Talk to the state attourney. You may have legal rights in your state that you don't know about .

They broke it they pay for it. It's possible the corrosion was caused by the antifreeze leaking onto the bolt. The antifreeze leak was covered under warranty the rust should be too.

If the rust was not caused by the leak then the design was faulty for putting a bolt that would rust on a part that is a wear part (the water pump) and will eventually fail in all vehicles.

I was given the choice to approve the work or come get the vehicle in its current state of disassembly.

Typical tactic. And I suppose if you don't pick it up they'll charge you a storage fee, right?

This is why I never get auto work done at the stealership, and part of the reason why I'll never buy a new car.

[Coytee]

I'd say duck.

If I were the mechanic working on it, I'd try to drill a pilot hole in it and then insert a screw extractor.... I can't belive the whole front of the engine has to be removed to take this out.

By the way... you might stop by (unannounced) and say "ohhhhhhhhh, how terrible... can I SEE this broken bolt and it's location?"

Frankly, the first thought that crossed my mind is, this is an attempt by them to simply fleece you (unless you've verified for yourself, the broken bolt)

[BLSamuel]

Yesterday I am told that they broke a bolt removing the water pump.

Hmmm... They broke a bolt.

The bolt is broken inside the motor block and they must expose the entire front of the engine to access it for removal and re-tapping. All of this at my expense - no warranty coverage - $1,100.00. They tell me the bolt was corroded and it's failure not their fault.

I'm not mechanic but if they could break it in removing the water pump then I'd think they were either doing something stupid, or if the bolt was corroded it would be due to leaking water pump? I would think could remove and retap bolt without removing front of engine but what do I know?

2 questions to be answered.

1. Is there really a broken bolt - tactics sound like scare tactics to me
2. If it's broken how did it break

I'd think a 2nd opinion from a surprise qualified Range Rover mechanic would be in order. They may be trying to pull off a big con or make you pay for something that was caused by their mistake or maybe they're telling the full truth but it just reeks of rotting fish.

Maybe just show up with a camera and a good mechanic of any kind without warning. If they freak out, then you're being conned.

The suggestions to talk to the Range Rover customer support is a very good idea.

I've had mechanics torque off a bolt in an old worn out vehicle and they took care of it and I don't think charged any extra - more of by the way, a bolt broke when we were doing this so we retapped it. In my case it could've been their fault but old worn out vehicle not under any kind of warrantly. I had a shop wanting to replace my entire AC system when it was just a loose connection on the electronic control on an otherwise great working AC system - jiggle the doohicky thingy by the compressor and it worked fine and didn't even need any freon. Naturally I didn't go back to that shop. Or return to the one I took a car in for a tune up essentially and I couldn't even drive it out of the lot it ran so miserably. Ran pretty good with only a slight hesitation at times before that.

Good luck.

[CECAA850]

Devils advocate here. Possibly a steel bolt and an aluminum housing? It's not uncommon for dielectric corrosion to occur on the threads and galll the threads into either stripping or breaking off. A high torque air tool will snap a bolt before you know it. If the hole is obstructed where a drill can not be inserted to where it's perpindicular to the broken head surface might necessitate removal of part of the front of the engine. Was the repair shop negligent or not? I don't know. A second opinion or someone with a trusted set of eyes looking in your behalf is in order. Remember, an extended service contract is not extending the factory warranty on your vehicle. They only cover certain listed components and many of them do not cover periferal damage no matter what the cost. if it were under the factory warranty, you would have been taken care of.

[CECAA850]

On a side note (DISCLAIMER, I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT RANGE ROVERS OR YOUR PARTICULAR ENGINE). Many overhead cam engines have their water pumps driven by the timing belt. If this is the case with your vehicle, do NOT replace the water pump without also replacing the timing belt.

[Mr Tech]

Oscarsear,

I have been an ASE certified technician for 35 years and have owned my own repair facility for 31 years.

First of all what they are telling you is possibly totally true and legitimate. I've seen it happen many times before.
It is never the technicians fault for a bolt breaking (no technician would turn a bolt the wrong direction, it just doesn't happen).
I am not familiar with Range Rovers, we don't work on those, but I might be able to better explain how and why this bolt broke.

It would not have been affected by the leaking water pump because there is a "spit hole" in the water pump where the coolant leaks out when the pump fails. Any coolant leaking on the external head of a bolt would not affect it anyway.

A lot of water pump bolts are relatively long and not only go thru the water pump, but also thru the timing case cover and then into the block.
The corrosion probably came from where the bolt passes thru a water (coolant) jacket in the timing case cover. It doesn't happen very often, but it does happen.
The corrosion could have been accelerated if the cooling system was neglected in any way.

Anyway, when the tech attempts to remove the corroded bolt in the normal manner, it just breaks.

Removing a corroded broken bolt can be extremly difficult.
Accessability is the first problem. The bolt is probably broken off in the block and most likely will require removing the timing case cover in order access it. This is a huge job. You also have to have at least 14-16 inches of clearance to access the broken bolt with a drill & drill bit. This also could be a problem.

I would suggest that you visit the dealer and have their tech show you exactly where the broken bolt is and explain exactly what he will have to do to access it. This is not something that can be explained over the phone, you need to see it for yourself.

I would refrain from pointing fingers of blame until you have seen the situation & received an explanation in person.

The price they qouted you to repair this may or may not be too high. There's no way to know that.
I would never qoute a customer a price for a broken bolt extraction, because no two of them are the same.
I would charge our hourly labor rate for however long the job took. Usually I would give the customer a "high-low range" of what the repair will cost.

I doubt very much that the extended warranty would cover this, although it would'nt hurt to ask. Most extended warranties suck and are not worth what they cost.

Good luck

[BLSamuel]

Mr Tech,

Sorry for my ranting as they could very well be right... but we've all had less than stellar experiences with repair shops including dealerships. I had a mercury once that had a recall... Gave me a list of several dozens of things that needed to be replaced. I'm sure that most were getting pretty well worn but it was a long list. The main mechanic at the repair shop I ended up at in that area had worked for a couple of dealers said all the dealerships he'd worked for in the area just wanted to sell parts. Now if they'd have told me what really needed to be replaced, such as the tie rods that were about to fall out and did need to be replaced.

You're right. It's quite possible they're being entirely truthful but unfortunately a good many of us come to expect the worst. It kind of gets down to how much you're willing to trust your mechanic as most aren't going to make stuff up. I've had no real problems with the ones we've used locally.

I think most extended warranties are a waste of money ... and yet we still got one to cover major things on our 2005 Dodge Grand Caravan we bought new to cover major things to 100,000 miles. It's nearing 94K. $100 an incident deductible. It's replaced the steering rack and a wiring harness in one of the power sliding doors. Had an ABS sensor go bad but the repair was exactly $100. I'm not sure what it cost but I'll have to look as I'm sure we're still behind but didn't have to shell out the coin for a new steering rack for the minivan.

And on a used vehicle pointless. Had a couple of transmissions replaced that way ... had to pay all the labor to install replacement transmission sent by the warranty company - 1st one on my pickup lasted 1 or 2 weeks - 2 bit mechanic (father in law's when he had a used car lot) said wrong transmission, brother in law said more the "mechanic" - the 2nd transmission needed to be replaced and couldn't be rebuilt as it had welded itself together. In a minivan, an iffy transmission, didn't last long before it started going bad - may have been the one we traded for the Grand Caravan as had other issues. Just old and worn out. Transmissions replaced / rebuilt by local transmission shops have held up real well.

[Mr Tech]

You're right. It's quite possible they're being entirely truthful but unfortunately a good many of us come to expect the worst. It kind of gets down to how much you're willing to trust your mechanic as most aren't going to make stuff up. I've had no real problems with the ones we've used locally.

You're absolutely right. It is definately a matter of trust.

There are far more reputable, competent & honest repair shops / technicians than ther are bad ones.
It's just that the bad ones give us a bad name.

The disturbing thing to me is when people automatically assume that a shop, whether mine or someone elses is trying rip them off or sell them something they don't need. Granted this does happen, but not in my shop and not in many other shops that I am familiar with.

In my opinion I think people should give the shop / dealership / tech the benefit of the doubt and conduct business on the basis of trust unless they do something to betray that trust.

[oscarsear]

I appreciate everyones thoughts. I do feel better knowing that this is not all that uncommon. The engine block is an aluminum type compound. I am disappointed that a BMW power plant would even have a water pump failure at 70K miles but that the breaks. It is a bad time for such any unexpected expense plus they have had the things for 2 weeks now (with the holiday and all).

[jacksonbart]

buy american next time

[kevinmi]

buy american next time

Top Notch!

Hire a good lawyer. the repair shop is trying to stick you with the cost of their mistake. I was an ASE certified tech for years, and I saw many shop owners try to pass on the cost of their mistakes to the customers. If confronted, they are almost always willing to negotiate.

Disclaimer: I no longer work as a mechanic. I now build American Trucks for an American company (until GM files bankruptcy, anyway!)

[CECAA850]

Hire a good lawyer. the repair shop is trying to stick you with the cost of their mistake.

What exactly do you surmise the shop did wrong? If you crossthread a bolt when installing it, then you've screwed up. How exactly do you mess up when removing a bolt? It either comes out or it doesn't. I don't see where you're coming from with your autocomdemnation.

[kevinmi]

Hire a good lawyer. the repair shop is trying to stick you with the cost of their mistake.

What exactly do you surmise the shop did wrong? If you crossthread a bolt when installing it, then you've screwed up. How exactly do you mess up when removing a bolt? It either comes out or it doesn't. I don't see where you're coming from with your autocomdemnation.

If it's your job to remove bolts all day long, you should know about the problems that may exist, such as galvanic reaction or oxidation that may make a bolt difficult to remove. Using a pneumatic gun to back off bolts in a "timely " fashion so you can beat the given time alloted for the job is a sure way to snap off stubborn bolts. Even using hand tools takes a certain finesse sometimes, especially on older vehicles. When I'm restoring classic cars, I always make sure to treat the bolts I'm removing beforehand with some type of penetrate to insure easy removal. If I do happen to snap a bolt, I consider it my fault for not doing the job right, instead of putting the blame on the customer for having incooperative bolts. Common sense. Bolts sometimes don't just come out or doesn't. If it doesn't come out, don't break it off.

[JJkizak]

I used to rebuild old Corvettes and removing old bolts is an art. If the threads are exposed such as a bumper bolt you spray Blaster on it and wait a minute or two then it will screw right out using a six point socked or wrench. If a bolt is broken in an exhaust manifold and when the exhaust manifold is removed the broken bolt is sticking out of the block you can then squirt it with the Blaster and back it out with vice grips or if not too tight with pliers. If the bolt is broken in the block (7/16" bolt) using a left hand drill bit of 1/4" and blaster (Blaster will let you drill a hole into steel with a dull bit) drill a hole as close to center as possible and usually the heat generated from the drilling and the blaster will screw the broken bolt right out before you know what happened. If the broken bolt is rusted shut you may need to use a very small acetylene torch flame to heat the piss out of it then "easy out" the bolt. If that doesn't work start using larger drill bits. The bigger the hole the less stress there is on the threads. It takes a lot of patience. The left hand drill bits will screw the bolt out once it breaks loose. Then re-tap the threads. Remember your drill is in reverse when drilling with a left hand drill bit. If the threads are screwed up then install a helicoil insert of the proper length. Left hand drill bits and Helicoil kits are standard available items and cost a lot of pants crapping money. Being it's a Rover there is no telling what kind of thread is utilized. Then there is the problem of the debris left over from all of your screwing around inside the block if the hole penetrates to the inside of the block. A magnet tool can get most of it. A 1/2" air impact wrench can be used on stubborn bolts very carefully with six point impact sockets. The huge transients it applies to the bolt can sometimes bust it loose. I used to charge $50.00 to remove a broken screw-in stud on high performance heads. Boy was I dumb.

Blaster says it can cause cancer but I ignore the warning. It really works.

JJK

[MechMan]

As an automotive technician of over 25 years I totally agree with MrTech and as usual am disturbed at the people that know nothing about automotive repairs that just blurt out "the mechanic must have turned the bolt the wrong way" or "they must have over torqued it".

Friends....If we did not know which way to turn a bolt, we would not be licenced to repair vehicles.

I am not totaly familliar with that vehicle, but if the water pump is mounted to the front of the timing cover via long bolts that go through both to the block, then yes the timing cover has to come of for proper extraction. It is no more the technicians fault than your own...It is the engineering and manufacturing process that is at fault and if you go to the top you will get it fixed for you. If you are getting it repaired at a warranty approved dealer, then they probably know ahead of time (common fault), that there may be a problem doing that particular job, and will usually warn ahead of time about bolt failures.

I don't mean to sound harsh...but listening to business majors, design experts, computer technicians and electrical engineers always telling mechanics they must have done something wrong really gets under my skin. I myself have about $150,000 more worth of tools than all the formers, and must continue my education anually as well to stay up to date on the latest technology...yet, we are still assumed goons by those that don't know any better.

It all comes down to one thing...

We Don't break em...We fix em!

[MechMan]

Kevin and JJ.

Saw your posts and agree as well, but as another Corvette (amoungst other) restorer we must agree that there is a big difference, considering this is a 2004 RR and not a 1967.

[Daddy Dee]

I'm not a mechanic, so that's a disclaimer to start.

What I am wondering is if the extended warranty covers a water pump that fails, why doesn't it cover a bolt that fails?

Does the extended warranty exclude a corroded bolt? Why is that?