If God had wanted Klipsch speakers made of MDF, He'd have made trees out of MDF

[John Warren]

Here the intro to the JBL K2 (from JBL website).

Given that the F__CKING thing cost a hefty $14K A PIECE do you REALLY think they'd skimp a few bucks on the enclosure?

Christ, they could have built the enclosure out of 1" thick aircraft certified plywood and only added (maybe) and extra $150 to the BOM.

They even BRAG about using a 1" thick MDF material, IN A $14K loudspeaker (=$28K PAIR!)

I'm am F__CKING DONE.

Bookshelf/Floorstanding Speakers

K2™ Series

K2 S9800 (Medium Gray) 3-Way, 15-Inch Floorstanding Speaker

The culmination of half a century of research in acoustical engineering, the specialty Project K2 S9800 loudspeakers embody the state of the art in loudspeaker technology. From pure-beryllium diaphragms in the high-frequency and ultrahigh-frequency compression drivers, to the independent, bi-ampable/bi-wirable dividing networks, all enclosed in 1-inch-thick MDF and acoustically inert SonoGlass™, the K2 S9800 is an exclusive audio product designed for the most discerning audiophile.

[HDBRbuilder]

I'm just glad that I don't have $28,000 to blow on a pair of speakers that have cabinets which turn to fresh cow patty material if somebody spills a beer on them (or a bottle of dom Perignon, for the "discerning audiophiles" visiting at the time).

Do rich "discerning audiophiles" have wives who put potted plants on top of their speakers and occassionally over water them? No...that's right...they have maids who do the plant watering, sorry!

[bluesboy]

Well put John Warren.

[Don Richard]

They even BRAG about using a 1" thick MDF material, IN A $14K loudspeaker (=$28K PAIR!)

Here's a guy who makes, arguably, some of the best speakers out there right now. He doesn't like MDF at all, and explains why:

http://www.stereophile.com/interviews/508int/index.html

Simply because a company uses inferior materials on a very expensive product does not make the material good.

[John Warren]

I'm just glad that I don't have $28,000 to blow on a pair of speakers that have cabinets which turn to fresh cow patty material if somebody spills a beer on them (or a bottle of dom Perignon, for the "discerning audiophiles" visiting at the time).

Do rich "discerning audiophiles" have wives who put potted plants on top of their speakers and occassionally over water them? No...that's right...they have maids who do the plant watering, sorry!

If your going to have a FRAT PARTY, I'd suggest you leave the K2s in another room and break out the LaScalas. Not only are the cones vomit proof, they just sound so much better when your loaded!

[John Warren]

They even BRAG about using a 1" thick MDF material, IN A $14K loudspeaker (=$28K PAIR!)

Here's a guy who makes, arguably, some of the best speakers out there right now. He doesn't like MDF at all, and explains why:

http://www.stereophile.com/interviews/508int/index.html

Simply because a company uses inferior materials on a very expensive product does not make the material good.

You win, you found the alternative to MDF!!!!!

AND they're only $300K/pr!

[HDBRbuilder]

C'mon, John...deep down you really know that cost is the MAIN reason speaker cabinets are are made of MDF nowadays, admit it! Lots of folks put great components into cabinets made of "dog crap and tater peelings" (what my father called MDF and other particleboards), but that doesn't mean that particle board is used because it is better. Sales brochures are designed to convince possible customers to buy a product, and MDF makers have been trying to convince wood product users that particleboard is good stuff for ALMOST HALF A CENTURY NOW, but even though most bottom line folks have adopted it, doesn't mean it is the best for speaker cabinets. To think so is just to adopt the lemming mentality the MDF makers want us to adopt.

[Don Richard]

You win, you found the alternative to MDF!!!!!

AND they're only $300K/pr!

The Magico Mini is made from stacked birch plywood with aluminum front and rear panels and costs about the same as the JBL model you mentioned.

The Ultimates are horn-loaded with a hand welded aluminum midrange horn.

Either will make your JBL sound bad in comparison.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Let's see, the $25,000/pr. JBL "Flagship" K2 S9800 cabinet is made from 1" thick MDF (such dopes, huh!).

Dopes? Not JBL. They increased their profits by using cheaper materials of construction, at the expense of true "flagship performance". MDF is used mostly because of costs, not performance.

I'm with John on this one. B&W's flagship 800 series is also made of MDF, with really expensive veneers on them. All Wilson speakers are made of "X Material" which is basically MDF engineered for certain properties, again with an expensive finish. These companies are not trying to cut a few bucks on these particular speakers.

When you hit these speakers with your knuckle, they feel as dead as concrete. Personally, I hate working with MDF and never do, but it works in this application.

[Don Richard]

All Wilson speakers are made of "X Material" which is basically MDF engineered for certain properties, again with an expensive finish.

X material is closer to man-made marble than it is to MDF. A 2 ft. square piece weighs around 100 lbs, IIRC. It should feel like concrete when struck, that's about what it is.

[edwinr]

Wilson's speakers are made of virtual concrete

with bits of wood thrown into the mix. You can't compare that

stuff with the standard MDF we're discussing here. And frankly

most of Wilson's stuff is pretty ordinary in the sound quality

stakes. B&W's 800 series, no matter which way you cut it,

no matter what fancy veneers they've glued on to them, are made of

bog standard MDF. For the money they're asking for them, you

would expect B&W to give the customer a better deal. But

then most people don't notice, I guess. If they look pretty on

the outside, and make a half decent noise, then it doesn't matter.

The 801's were in my top 10 speaker list a while ago. They

still sound pretty good - but the rest of their stuff is yuck.

I've developed the mentality that B&W are the English equivalent

of Bose, selling a lifestyle and look rather than genuine sound quality.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Wilson's speakers are made of virtual concrete with bits of wood thrown into the mix. You can't compare that stuff with the standard MDF we're discussing here. And frankly most of Wilson's stuff is pretty ordinary in the sound quality stakes. B&W's 800 series, no matter which way you cut it, no matter what fancy veneers they've glued on to them, are made of bog standard MDF. For the money they're asking for them, you would expect B&W to give the customer a better deal. But then most people don't notice, I guess. If they look pretty on the outside, and make a half decent noise, then it doesn't matter. The 801's were in my top 10 speaker list a while ago. They still sound pretty good - but the rest of their stuff is yuck. I've developed the mentality that B&W are the English equivalent of Bose, selling a lifestyle and look rather than genuine sound quality.

You're entitled to your opinion, but the Bose comparison and "selling a lifestyle and look rather than genuine sound quality" is just plain wrong or an attempt to get a response.

[John Warren]

HDBR-Sure, cost drives everything. BUT I like the density that MDF
provides in this this application. It's higher than lumber core plywood and 7-ply. It's
comparable to high-grade birch 13-ply. When the stuff is doubled-up and braced, it works exceedingly well.

Consider this, there are times in life where the lower cost option
coincides with the best engineering choice. I would suggest that MDF is one of those times.

Working with it is another matter, the dust is terrible, it's super fine, gets over everything and is loaded with nasty chemicals (alas).

Regarding Wilson, I think they're using linen fiber reinforced phenolic plate as an enclosure material. It has high density with the self damping characteristics of cellulose fibers,
so best of both worlds. The X and M might(?) refer to the ratios of reinforcement
material and the thermoset resin binder. Changing the ratios provides ways to
alter the stiffness relative to the internal damping. Wilson puts alot of engineering into the enclosures, perhaps too much(?).

[HDBRbuilder]

John, the lumbercore most of us are best familiar with has poplar as the lumber of the lumbercore, and poplar is very light-weight wood (generally), but considering that there are numerous other woods that COULD be used as the lumber in the lumbercore, most of which will be much more dense than poplar, and all of which COULD be selected for CONSISTENCY of density, then lumbercore plywood COULD be brought back as a medium of choice agreed?

All of that aside, my personal choice of what is available today would be hand-selected baltic birch plywood, with veneers of choice applied for whatever use one desires in speaker building. I will be retiring to the Philippines in a few years, and baltic birch IS available there. In addition, numerous veeers, many of which are no longer availablefor import to the USA, are available there. SO, you can imagine what aI wil be doing in my retirement.

I am all for preservation of rain forests, with the use of renewable resources in replanted rain forest situations, BUT I am also a realist. Just because the US government bans the import of a particular wood type from particular countries does NOT mean that those trees will NOT be cut, because they will,plain and simple...AND if they can NOT be marketed, then they will be used for firewood. For example: Do I want fine rosewood to be used for firewood??? NO! Can I get it here in the USA? NO! Can I get it in the Philippines? YES! SEE where I am coming from?

[DrWho]

Who cares what material is used? Either it's stiff enough or not (aside from the other environmental issues).

[HDBRbuilder]

Oh, c'mon Dr Who, don't ruin all of this mutual harassment fun over whether a material is stiff enough or not,GEEZ! THis thread is just about to literally explode with opinions and skuldugery!

[Groomlakearea51]

.... my personal choice of what is available today would be hand-selected baltic birch plywood, with veneers of choice applied for whatever use one desires in speaker building.

[Y]

...and that hand selection part is turning into a real PIA. That's the key to a nice sheet for sure. The lumber section store reps now won't let you move the bad sheets off the top, citing "liability" and "danger to the customer"; and they don't want to move the sheets themselves, one even citing that there is no difference, and another telling me that "store policy" is that I have to take the top sheet.... A brief meeting with the store's "chain of command" with the manager telling them, "he comes here once every couple weeks and buys this stuff, so give the guy the sheet he wants"..... When I go to get a sheet of birch, I always go very early on Sunday mornings when there's almost no-one else in the section and the store reps are bored....

An early "Best of luck" when you head to the Philipines. Lotsa' neat exotic woods there to play with!!!

[Marvel]

For example: Do I want fine rosewood to be
used for firewood??? NO! Can I get it here in the USA? NO! Can I
get it in the Philippines? YES! SEE where I am coming from?

Indian Rosewood is pretty much alive and well thanks to the tea
industry. In India, Rosewood is grown as a windbreak for the tea and has to be harvested every so many years. It was that massive culling in South America that did in the Brazilian Rosewood. Other species have not have not had the non-lumber use, and are in danger of becoming very rare or unavailable.

Andy - Where will you be in the Phil.? There's some nice areas to live over there.

Bruce

[John Warren]

Who cares what material is used? Either it's stiff enough or not (aside from the other environmental issues).

And how does this help? If someone asks you for advice (say they what to build an enclosure), is this how you advise them? Is stating the bleeding obvious guidance?

How stiff is stiff enough? (sounds like a slogan)

[John Warren]

HDBR-But I would think you'd like MDF, it uses all the wood scraps(?) and thus maximizes the utility of the harvest. The stuff is hot pressed cellulose fiber and resin (UF?). There are "green" version coming to the market that use less toxic binders.