Jubilee horn alternatives

[hobie1dog]

Without venturing off into off-topic areas or imposing on existing threads.....I am looking at COST-EFFECTIVE alternatives to the 402 horns and drivers that is normally used. Notice I emphasized "cost-effective". I don't have 2k to spend on the 402 horns or the K69 ?? drivers normally used, or the TAD units.[]

So what I would like to find is another horn/driver combo that would mate up with the Jub bass cabinet while still keeping it a two-way system, as I would be bi-amping to have control electronically over the slopes and levels to the drivers. I thought I read on one of the other threads where someone had preferred some Altec horns and drivers(that could be found used?) JBL??? Also keep in mind that I cannot hear ANYTHING ABOVE 14K CPS, so I don't need super-tweeters. The picture of Paul next to his Jubilee (with the wooden horn) type of thing is something I'd be interested in., is that the 510 horn????

Thanks in advance for any suggestions

[PrestonTom]

You have asked many good questions. Let's get started ....

The K-402 and K-510 (the smaller one) are a modified tractrix expansion. This is proprietary to Klipsch and is different than the standard tractrix (which there are a number of clones available). Two consequences are that you get the benefits of the tractrix expansion (horn loading and less diffraction at the mouth) and also a constant, controlled dispersion. This last feature makes it a "CD horn", IOW its frequency response is the same on-axis as it is off-axis (within reason. I did not say it was a flat response. It is not, rather it has a high frequency roll-off (as do all CD horns, eg. Manta Ray & JBL b-radials etc). So this requires a high freq boost (aka CD compensation). You mentioned the one in the picture with PWK. That is the k-403 and is not obtainable.

One does not need to use a CD horn. If you want there are alternatives from Altec, JBL, Peavey, Electro-voice, Oblate Spheroid, etc. Using a CD horn is not required. It depends whether a this pattern of dispersion is a priority for you.

One does not need to use a big horn. However if the mouth is not large, then the directivity will not be controlled (very broad) at the lower frequencies. This may or may not be a priority for you.

One does not need to use a two-way configuration. By choosing a two way, you have put yourself in a bit of a corner and the options become more expensive. Now, is two-way a priority for you?

Those are the barest details. But let me make a suggestion. This is based on price and availability as the priority. It is by no means the best system but it would be achievable if price is the number one priority and you could always improve upon it later.

Perhaps.... 1) get the Jubilee bass bin and go three-way. Use the mid and tweeter from a Klipsch horn (or La Scala). This is a tried and true system and the parts are available at a resaonable price.

Or .....2) get the Jubilee bass bin and find an Altec 511 horn (many available on eBay) and mate it with a Altec (or clone) 902 driver. Determine the crossover frequency (and desired slope of the filter) and give Great Plains Audio a phone call. They will set you up with the proper diaphragm and give good tips. For tewo-way, this will require some HF boost. For a crossover use a Behringer DCX. These will give adjustable slopes and settings and also provide time-alignment. These are very inexpensive units (and questionable reliability) so do not buy a used one and be prepared to do some DIY to upgrade the analog output section (alternatives are much more expensive).

I am sure you will get many more suggestions. Mine are probably the least expensive.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[hobie1dog]

There was one 511 metal horn on Ebay for 300.00, then the driver for it was 400.00,

so that puts me up to 1400.00 instead of the 2k for the normal components.[]

And yes, a two way is the preferred way so that I won't end up with a 3 way / triamped system when I'm done.

[Blvdre]

There was one 511 metal horn on Ebay for 300.00, then the driver for it was 400.00,

so that puts me up to 1400.00 instead of the 2k for the normal components.

And yes, a two way is the preferred way so that I won't end up with a 3 way / triamped system when I'm done.

hobie, those prices are way above average, so don't get discouraged. You should be able to pick up a pair of 511's on the bay for ~$150, and you can buy brand spankin' new Great Plains Audio 902's (same as the altec 902, but new!) for $400, last time I checked. So now you're at ~$550 for a stereo pair, pretty reasonable.

[Islander]

Do you already have Jubilee bass bins? If not, you might want to look at using La Scala bass bins with the 510/K-69 tweeters. That's what I'm using. They're sort of like "junior Jubilees", less expensive and less bulky, but still great-sounding.

You can bi-amp them and since they're a factory-tested combo, the active crossover settings are available, so there's no guesswork.

You can get a fair approximation of Jubilee sound for a bit less than Jubilees, but if you go with the cheapest stuff you can find, it will really not be the same thing. If you have to save up for a few months to get what you really want, it will cost less in the long run.

[Coytee]

La Scala bass bins with the 510/K-69 tweeters

Marty, I agree with this. You can find (or make?) LaScala bottoms. If you made them, you could actually improve it by making it thicker to kill it from resonating on you, much like the LaScala II.

Then slap a 510 or 402 on top.

I've got 3 LaScalas, so if you are in this area again, or need an excuse to come to the area, I could easily slap a "JubeScala" together for you although in my case, it's using the 402. Don't know that I'd be prepared yet for a legit side by side since the Jubilees are upstairs and all 3 LaScalas are downstairs.

I'll say though... if you are on axis, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a significant difference between the 402 and 510. I know I didn't hear much of a difference when on axis (when hearing them in Indianapolis). When however, you move off axis, the difference becomes quite noticable. The 510 loses a lot of its high frequency energy and the 402 keeps on keeping on.

That is when my lightbulb went off regarding on/off axis.

Serious offer if you want to put up with me again (and my dogs [&])

[seti]

I was lucky enough to buy Jubilee clones from Mark1101 who also let me take home some crossovers until I could pay for them which was very cool. JC did the same with Altec 511B and 902 drivers. I really really like he 511/902 more than I expected. I have had some problems like hooking the system up wrong a couple of times lol fortunately JC and Mark helped me out. I'll be taking some measurements this week and I'd be happy to email them to you if it would help you make a decision. I'm still trying to get the right tap on my autoformer set but I've been too busy and haven't gotten around to finishing this up. Also I have to move them back to the corner...Jeepers they are heavy...

[Coytee]

I seem to recall reading some old threads (old, defined as probably before 2004) where people were lamenting the Jubilee not being built and saying how the bottom section, because of its ability to cross over higher than the Khorn would really "open up the choices" to midrange drivers and allow you to get away from the K400/401 program.

I don't recall if those conversations were presuming to build a 3 way or 2 way, just that the problem was the low crossover of the Khorn and the Jubilee fixed that.

[PrestonTom]

There was one 511 metal horn on Ebay for 300.00, then the driver for it was 400.00,

so that puts me up to 1400.00 instead of the 2k for the normal components.

And yes, a two way is the preferred way so that I won't end up with a 3 way / triamped system when I'm done.

Let me clarify. The Altec 511 is a 1 inch throat horn. These are very common and cost about $75 each (give or take). The horn you saw was the less common 511E (a 1.4 inch throat). They are rare, cost more, and require a larger driver (eg. altec 288). Those large format drivers would be out of your price range. The reason I am high on the Altec is that so many folks have done this before and worked out the kinks. The cost of drivers (eg Altec 902) vary widely in price. Alternatively, you can buy a new clone from Great Plains Audio. At some point you should probably give them a call.

Regarding the idea of a K-510 or K-402 on a La Scala bas bin: That is a possibility; however, it might need to be supplemented with a sub woofer (depending on your priorities). Also the prices of these horns (new) are still expensive and very few show up on the used market. At some point you need to let us know what the budget might be. We are not sure "how much is too much"

Everything has a solution.

-Tom

[seti]

I seem to recall reading some old threads (old, defined as probably before 2004) where people were lamenting the Jubilee not being built and saying how the bottom section, because of its ability to cross over higher than the Khorn would really "open up the choices" to midrange drivers and allow you to get away from the K400/401 program.

I don't recall if those conversations were presuming to build a 3 way or 2 way, just that the problem was the low crossover of the Khorn and the Jubilee fixed that.

Two way when possible.

I do plan on trying the Jubilee LF crossed higher late summer. I've never heard it crossed over 600 and I am so curious. I may not like it but I will try.

[Marvel]

The Klipsch K-69 as the P.Audio BMD750 2" driver is $189 each.

I want to try these on a set of GotHover's 2" tractrix horns. (but I can't get them right now.. )

Bruce

[BS Button]

There are some 2" throat horns that I guy hand makes in Canada. He's on Ebay all the time. Oh, but they are exponential...drats. Prolly won't work with 2 electronic crossovers and 12 amplifiers; they'd prolly sound terrible. I still don't understand about all this EQ stuff and don't really care. I heard passives on 402 Jub's at Rigma's. Also, you wouldn't get to debate about whether or not a passive can be used: why? because it could. And, it would be a nice simple two way crossover. Costs lots less, too. Use these horns, get some JBL 2" drivers, the Jubilee bass bins, and a simple crossover and then tell me it doesn't sound good.

[Blvdre]

I'm sure Rigma's x-overs contained passive EQ. Otherwise, I imagine the sound would be really disappointing.

[greg928gts]

There are some 2" throat horns that I guy hand makes in Canada.

His name is Andrew Vanderkruk. If someone is interested in contacting him, just email me. I've met with him and heard his horns and also some pretty interesting systems he's built. I have a pair of his Bentwood horns, but I haven't hooked them up yet! Just no time. I've got a pair of JBL drivers for them too. Andrew claims that, on axis, these horns will cover the high end. He likes the TAD drivers, I can't remember the model number right now.

Greg

[greg928gts]

Here's a pair of Jubilee bass bins with Martinelli horns and Beyma CP750ND drivers. Two-way, passive network with NO EQ, crossed at 800Hz. The Martinelli's are not available any more, and they were very expensive anyway, but I wonder what a wooden tractrix horn would sound like with the Beyma drivers? I bet it would be great. Pretty simple to build a pair and try it, I just need more time!

Greg

[BS Button]

There are some 2" throat horns that I guy hand makes in Canada.

His name is Andrew Vanderkruk. If someone is interested in contacting him, just email me. I've met with him and heard his horns and also some pretty interesting systems he's built. I have a pair of his Bentwood horns, but I haven't hooked them up yet! Just no time. I've got a pair of JBL drivers for them too. Andrew claims that, on axis, these horns will cover the high end. He likes the TAD drivers, I can't remember the model number right now.

Greg

Thanks Greg...that's correct. I couldn't remember his name. Looks like good work, as well.

[BS Button]

I'm sure Rigma's x-overs contained passive EQ. Otherwise, I imagine the sound would be really disappointing.

What would it sound like?

[DrWho]

Well you did say cheap....

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=270-300 ($24)

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=290-448 ($59)

I've been meaning to try out this combo....just haven't gotten around to purchasing parts. The Dayton horn claims it loads to 700Hz, and the PSD2002 is used by Klipsch in a lot of their old pro cabinets. It should be good to at least 18kHz, and since it has an Fs of 550Hz, you should be ok crossing as low as 800Hz to 1kHz provided you keep it real steep.

The only question is how well that driver behaves with the Dayton horn. The measurements provided of the PSD2002 were probably taken on a 1.5kHz Fc horn, so I would expect better LF extension with the Dayton. You will be able to run 8W RMS into that driver at 800Hz, which would be peaks of 114dB....that might be cutting it real close (so be careful with the volume and super dynamic music).

You might also consider using this guy:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-270
It's a bit cheaper, but it's specs are a bit misleading and in portugese:
http://www.e21.com.br/selenium/forceDownload.php?fdown=mercado_interno/profissional/drivers/Titanio/D220Ti%20-Rev.00-03-07%20Port.pdf
Plane wave shows it 26dB down at 20kHz, but the distortion plots are showing with a horn that totally collapses the polars...I'm not sure if you can figure a whole 20dB worse distortion with the 20dB of EQ you'll have to throw in.

[DrWho]

I'm sure Rigma's x-overs contained passive EQ. Otherwise, I imagine the sound would be really disappointing.

What would it sound like?

Muddy, no air...heck, no cymbals. It'd sound like a CD horn without the compensation []

[hobie1dog]

Here's a pair of Jubilee bass bins with Martinelli horns and Beyma CP750ND drivers. Two-way, passive network with NO EQ, crossed at 800Hz. The Martinelli's are not available any more, and they were very expensive anyway, but I wonder what a wooden tractrix horn would sound like with the Beyma drivers? I bet it would be great. Pretty simple to build a pair and try it, I just need more time!

Greg

Building the horns would be something I would like to do, I would just need the curvature profiles to duplicate...bendable plywood is a wonderful product to work with. I guess I would like to make a duplicate of the 402 horn....yeah I know, another cheapskate copying someone's design......times are gonna get tough, believe me.

Coytee mentioned using LaScala bass bins, but after hearing his Jubilee's, I would have to have nothing less in performance than those Jubes he has, and then I'd really prefer to stack two pair of them for proper percussion impact. I have only a desire to put highly dynamic loudspeakers in my room that will provide realisitic percussion effects. Then I'd still need to keep my subwoofer for the DEEP stuff. If you haven't cracked drywall seams, or knocked off items from shelves, then you have too small of a subwoofer. As in " Boogie Nights".............."Believe me, you NEED the bass"