Audible Nectar Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 I'm kind of shocked that pair has not sold especially when I have received 3 orders for new pairs in the last month or so. Then also factor in because of rising cost of components I was forced to raise the MSRP to $3199 for a pair recently ($2799 for forum members and previous customers)............$1650 is an absolute steel even if they are 4+ years old... Not much beyond tubes and tube socket cleaning to go wrong with those amps. I have yet to perform a repair beyond someone breaking the epoxied in place bias controls loose from the chassis on any of the nearly 100 pairs of VRD's built.... Totally reliable amps. I wondered how new VRD pairs were selling these days, especially in light of this unsold pair....recession and all......it's good to see that people see the value of the LONG TERM in these. When one looks at the lifespan of such a product, thier cost IS very reasonable. Like blue jeans: if you buy a $15 pair of jeans at Wal-Mart and you wear them out in two years - or if you could spend $100 and get a pair that lasts 15 years like they used to......what's the better deal?? And at $1650 for a four year old pair, they have 90% of thier life remaining (if not longer). Just getting broken in[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 I have yet to perform a repair beyond someone breaking the epoxied in place bias controls loose from the chassis on any of the nearly 100 pairs of VRD's built. Craig, If you don't mind me asking..... Are you using the little 3/8" Bourns multiturn trimpots epoxied to the bottom of the chassis? I want to do this with my Altec 345A amplifier, but I was concerned about how the epoxy would hold up over time and heat. I guess it's evident that the epoxy holds up rather well. I'm using two 5K 10 turn pots to bias each pair, but I already have 10 ohm current sensing resistors for each EL34. When you check the current for each tube, it's obvious that one pot won't balance the two tubes. I hate it.......I'm just gonna use a 5K pot I have now for a main bias pot, and then order four Bourns trimpots and epoxy them to the bottom of the chassis. So I can adjust each tube. It should make the amp sound that much better........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winchester21 Posted March 30, 2009 Author Share Posted March 30, 2009 Strill waiting on the Peach to arrive. I cannot tear myself away from this Tubemagic 300B M / C34v setup. yeah I know- you can't run tubes in front of of SS. As an interim situation I would disagree. Obviously tube/tubes would be better. But we should be careful not to discourage someone from buying a tube amp and later going to a tube pre when finances permit.If a deal comes along - grab it and use what you have until you can afford what is really needed. The highs and mids are heavenly- the bass is very smooth- the whole deal is warm and seamless compared to my beloved mac 2105. The concept of soundstage is starting to take shape. I am hearing sounds in my CDs that I did not hear before. This is very serious equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tblake10 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 This is interesting to me as I am in a similar situation. New khorn owner starting out with older solid state mac stuff but interested in tubes as well. I appreciate your views and look forward to your impressions of the other equipment you are getting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winchester21 Posted March 31, 2009 Author Share Posted March 31, 2009 I can tell you that this is a gut wrenching deal. I love my mac stuff. I have rack space issues and it is killing me to think about parting with any of it. I will most likely sell my C34v- much as I hate to- and move the 2105 into my HT stuff- use the HK 870 in another room or sell it. The sad fact is ... particulary with k horns... solid state just does not cut it.. there i said it.. Any other conclusion qualifies as denial. The difference- EVEN running the Tubemagic 300B in front of SS is night and day- I can only speculate what the peach 2 will do to the picture. If you even listen to a good set of tubes through k horns.. plan on selling your solid state mac stuff... good as it is.. no comparison. I am a die hard mac junkie but the facts are obvious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuisis Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 You will love the Peach, I was amazed at how much difference it made in my system. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HPower Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Hey winchester, Please give us an update after your Peach arrives, I would be very interested to get your impressions with the Peach in front of your MC2105. You are approaching your system in the opposite direction as I am, but I am guessing we may end up at the same spot. I have been running my KHorns with a pair of Welborne DRD45s, Peach II, JD-100, and am VERY satisfied with the sound. The 1.8 wpc are more than enough when I am sitting in the sweet spot, but like you, when I am elsewhere in the house I would like to be able to ask for a few more db. I was thinking, when I can swing it financially, of adding a SS amp to look after those occasions. Maybe an older Mac (2155, 2125, 7150, etc) or Classe (DR-9, Fifteen, CA-100, CA-150, etc). After reading your last statement, maybe a higher powered valve amp would be the way to go? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winchester21 Posted March 31, 2009 Author Share Posted March 31, 2009 Hpower- I know exactly what you are saying- there is definitely a volume"sweet spot" with these tubes. I fell in love with a Welbourne at a party- friend of a friends house- not sure which model. but it was definitely a medium voulme sweetheart. The SS mac is nothing to be sneezed at for what you are wanting to do. The rumor is that the Peach will carry the mail with SS or tubes. My deal is that the Tube magic is a very strong 20 wpc with El 34 bass kickers- IT IS LOUD!!!!. It plays clean at 110 db and this has me wondering about the macs. With all the deals floating around right now you may want to consider a 2nd tube amp with 20 + wpc. I am totally blown away at the volume and performance of the Tubemagics. I expected voulme issues and they were none.My next purchase will be an 8 watt musical jewel to go with my TT. At this point I am overboard over this Tubemagic- Once the Peach comes in and I have a chance to hook up everything over a couple of beers- maybe I will have a more objective analysis to report. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winchester21 Posted March 31, 2009 Author Share Posted March 31, 2009 H power- one other thing you may want to consider for your loud- party amp- mac 275 tube model- 75 per side- kick's serious @ss in the volume department and has a very nice tube sound- not cheap- but I would buy one in a skinny minute at the right price- send CIGARBUM an e-mail- he has an nice one and would be glad to comment on his expierence.This amp catches a boatload of grief from the audiophiles- but in a multi amp setup- I would love to own one. Where power is desired and audiophile details are negotiable IMHO it is the king.i know 3 peole who own these and nobody is unhappy. you would have all the bases covered- CIGAR BUM has a Peach heading his way also that will be hooked to a mac 275.. that would be another chance for you to get a reading. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I have yet to perform a repair beyond someone breaking the epoxied in place bias controls loose from the chassis on any of the nearly 100 pairs of VRD's built. Craig, If you don't mind me asking..... Are you using the little 3/8" Bourns multiturn trimpots epoxied to the bottom of the chassis? I want to do this with my Altec 345A amplifier, but I was concerned about how the epoxy would hold up over time and heat. I guess it's evident that the epoxy holds up rather well. I'm using two 5K 10 turn pots to bias each pair, but I already have 10 ohm current sensing resistors for each EL34. When you check the current for each tube, it's obvious that one pot won't balance the two tubes. I hate it.......I'm just gonna use a 5K pot I have now for a main bias pot, and then order four Bourns trimpots and epoxy them to the bottom of the chassis. So I can adjust each tube. It should make the amp sound that much better........... Mike yup I epoxy them to the chassis and I have had a few issues on early amps before I discovered a trick. I'm fairly sure most of the problem is users being too rough with them though or I did not get a good bond right from day one. By the way under chassis heat is not an issue I have monitored under chassis heat and it never rises above 100 degrees F..... not much under there to produce heat so the only heating influence is the tubes and power transformer above the chassis. The trick I found (thanks the Dean) is to rough sand the metal chassis leaving scratches for the epoxy to grab and also the contact surface of the bourns control before bonding them to the chassis. I can literally just about pick the top plate and transformers (20 pounds) up by the bourns control with this method. The users just needs to be careful that they engage the slot in the adjustment screw properly and not wedge it between the chassis adjustment hole and the screw. If you feel any real resistance to turning the control then you have not engaged the control properly. The benefit of using these controls out ways the draw back of being careful by a huge margin. Dialing in perfect bias on the tubes is so simple with these 15 turn controls. I think I have had to repair 4 or 5 amps out of a 100 pairs in the 5 years I have been building them (in fact these are the only repairs I have ever performed on VRD's except one customer that reversed the front end tube compliment for months which fried the phase inverter plate resistor which in turn caused them to get noisy but surprisingly there resistance value was still dead on and other then the noise the amp still worked perfectly). Along with one or two handy customers fixing them on there own when they broke them lose. My own VRD's are about 5 years old and I have never broken them loose and have rolled more tubes then most all others users combined. Those controls are a big thumbs up !! Go for it. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Winchester, I'm curious as to when was the very first time you used a tube amplifier in your system? Man it sounds like you have the sickness bad [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winchester21 Posted April 1, 2009 Author Share Posted April 1, 2009 NOS- The Tubemagics are the first set that I have actually owned. The truth is that I have been lurking around this project for some time. Prices and other hobbies kept me away. Some equipment failures and badly needed speaker updates prompted this venture. I honestly never intended to go the tube route. My plan was to find some nice mac SS stuff and be satisfied. I sarted hanging out with some forum members and other local friends that are running tubes. With the horns it has become evident that the ss stuff is not the way to go with such a sensitive and efficent speaker. To date I have heard several Macs - Scott-Welbourne-Cary-Quads- some kind of custom job and a couple of others that I can't recall. The bad economy has certainly brought some deals out of the shadows which makes this addiction all the worse.Now seems the time to buy stuff that could never before be within my reach.My plan is to roll through some different amps and settle on 2 or 3 that I like for different applications. Yes I have the sickness. I bought a nearly complete reference system and ditched it in one month if that tells you anything. This is a bad bad place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HPower Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 winchester, Without doing anymore research and if I had to buy a higher powered tube amp right today, it would be a toss up between a pair of Craig's VRDs and the MC-275. But I don't have a spare 2Gr right now and I promised myself I would wait until the CND/USD exchange rate got a little closer to par, like last summer. Before the Welbornes, I was using a Jolida 300B at 8-9 wpc and that amp could rock pretty good but it had a bit of noise, hum at idle that bothered me. When I had my Cornwalls I used a pair of Quicksilver Mid Monos that were very nice but I think I would prefer trying an amp with the KT88, vs the EL34s in the Quickies. My buddy is using a HK Citation II (60 wpc KT88 from the 1960's) on his Altec Model 19s, I have been meaning to talk him into bringing it up to my place and try it on the KHorns. His Citation II sounds much nicer on his 19s than his HK Citation 12 (60 wpc SS from the 1970's) even with it in need of a bit of a rebuild... of which he has bought a parts kit and tubes from Jim McShane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winchester21 Posted April 1, 2009 Author Share Posted April 1, 2009 Small world- the forum buddy with the mac 275. and the Peach.. Will most likely buy the pair of Craig's VRDs that I steered him toward as his 2nd system with the Peach to power his cornscalas. Craigs VRD are very high on my list along with a pair of cary monoblocs that I am trying to wrestle away from the owner without spending a fortune. I would have bought the VRDs from the garage but I had comitted to too much other stuff when they came available. I have not personally had a chance to listen to a pair of the VRDs but from the talk on this forum- they have to be fantastic. The VRDs would certainly be the better value. I would be thrilled with either one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I have, compare them to Delta Studio in sound qualities, http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0306/delta_studio_6s33s.htm but without the cost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Mike yup I epoxy them to the chassis and I have had a few issues on early amps before I discovered a trick. I'm fairly sure most of the problem is users being too rough with them though or I did not get a good bond right from day one. By the way under chassis heat is not an issue I have monitored under chassis heat and it never rises above 100 degrees F..... not much under there to produce heat so the only heating influence is the tubes and power transformer above the chassis. The trick I found (thanks the Dean) is to rough sand the metal chassis leaving scratches for the epoxy to grab and also the contact surface of the bourns control before bonding them to the chassis. I can literally just about pick the top plate and transformers (20 pounds) up by the bourns control with this method. The users just needs to be careful that they engage the slot in the adjustment screw properly and not wedge it between the chassis adjustment hole and the screw. If you feel any real resistance to turning the control then you have not engaged the control properly. The benefit of using these controls out ways the draw back of being careful by a huge margin. Dialing in perfect bias on the tubes is so simple with these 15 turn controls. I think I have had to repair 4 or 5 amps out of a 100 pairs in the 5 years I have been building them (in fact these are the only repairs I have ever performed on VRD's except one customer that reversed the front end tube compliment for months which fried the phase inverter plate resistor which in turn caused them to get noisy but surprisingly there resistance value was still dead on and other then the noise the amp still worked perfectly). Along with one or two handy customers fixing them on there own when they broke them lose. My own VRD's are about 5 years old and I have never broken them loose and have rolled more tubes then most all others users combined. Those controls are a big thumbs up !! Go for it. Craig Cool. Thanks Craig. The pointer about getting a good rough surface for the chassis and trimpots helps quite a bit. I'll probably have to grind away the powder-coat from the chassis for a good bond. The trimpots will be mounted up front inbetween the signal tubes and away from the rectifiers and power tubes. I doubt will be much of a issue with respect to heat. I think most that 2 part epoxy or whatever sort is good up to high temps. The amp was originally intended for one main bias control pot, with four trimpots for each tube. Bourns makes clip-on brackets for panel(chassis) mounting. I tried to get Mouser over the phone to see if Bourns would set me up with four trimpots with the bracket clips. They tried, and Bourns said no.......Gee thanks, guys......But Mouser did try, it wasn't their fault. But why list something in your catalog that you can't honor? Oh well...Epoxy sounds like a more thrifty option. By this time, I was eight months into the project, already had the chassis powder-coated, didn't feel like drilling more holes, and was wanting to listen to the amplifier. So I just took the easy way out and used two bias pots for both pairs. Easy, but not optimal.... I think I can park the four trimpots and the main pot in a larger oval slot where the two bias pots are now. Or maybe mount the main pot off the back of the amp......I'm gonna ponder sumthin' out. You done good on the VRD's. You put yourself on the audio map with those, not to mention vintage rebuilds. Gotta feel a bit honored...... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 By the way under chassis heat is not an issue I have monitored under chassis heat and it never rises above 100 degrees F..... not much under there to produce heat so the only heating influence is the tubes and power transformer above the chassis. Just to be sure, use some J-B Weld... it will definitely handle the heat. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 If you pass on the VRD's (and why would you if you could afford them) buy this and send it to Craig for a recap: http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1243104412&/Marantz-8B-nicest-one-look Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 don't know this unit, but it seems pricely comnpared to the VRDs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 If you pass on the VRD's (and why would you if you could afford them) buy this and send it to Craig for a recap: http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1243104412&/Marantz-8B-nicest-one-look'>http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1243104412&/Marantz-8B-nicest-one-look http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1243104412&/Marantz-8B-nicest-one-look'>http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1243104412&/Marantz-8B-nicest-one-look'> THAT makes me wish I had some money! I would love an 8B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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