AltmanEars Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Its been about 18 months since I asked a few Khorn questions and I was recently fortunate enough to acquire a class B set directly from Klispch. I must confess I never heard Klipsch before I bought them. (My local Klipsch dealer does not carry Heritage so rather than hopping in the plane/car to visit a few dealers it became more economical to merely buy a pair and take my chances). I'm glad I did. Please let me fill in a few details before I ask questions. The environment: I'm using the Khorns in a 19 X 30 X 9 room which is completely dedicated to hifi. In other words, the room has a number of tube traps, absorbers/reflective panels which can be moved. The room has a separate 100amp panel with heavy gauge wiring to each hospital grade receptacle. Digital circuits have been separated from analog circuits. The equipment: The front end choices include top end Linn gear both turntable and CD. The electronics include the Linn gear, Futterman OTL amps, NYAL amp/pre. Linn pre/pro, Mcintosh pre/pro The sound: My first encounter was with the tube gear which has not been retubed for 8 years. I found that I had a problem with microphony and quickly switched the gear out to a stack of high end mid '90's linn gear. This gear gave the Klipsch a overly energetic sound which was slightly bright on some recordings. The brightness was compensated by a thunderous bass. Something else I noticed is that the Khorn never seems to be able to give one a completely dry presentation. There is always a touch of depth which is not entirely unpleasant but may indicate time domain errors which can be easily removed with an active crossover. Most importantly my wife and I were completely won over by the dynamics which give a live feeling to all the music we enjoy. The only price we had to pay was the lack of a completely smooth midrange --- like we get with our Martin Logan CLS's. (which we still have) I'm bad about selling hifi --- really bad. Now I'd like to improve my Khorns and I'm thinking about the following: 1. Run them active with either a 2 way or 3 way crossover. 2. Run a digital equalizer 3. Replace the solid state mids and highs with a nice tube amp 4. Replace the mid and high horns with something more linear My first inclination would be to buy a digital equalizer since this would allow me to run a spectrum analyzer to view and cure any frequency related room problems before I tackle new tube amps. Also If I went to a active setup has anyone done this by using a solid state amp on the bass bin and a tube on the high end with the tweeter midrange adressed by the existing passive Klipsch crossover? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Having several pairs, I would run them for a while with the current 3 way crossover just to get a better feel for them. At worst, you may want to change the caps; contact BEC (Bob Crites) in regards to replacing them. He can either do them crossovers for you or send you the caps. A symptom of old caps in Khorns is the smoothness of the midrange issue (IMHO). In one application I use an old SAE PAE 2800, but only for very minute tweaks to "final adjust" that particular room. The room is treated, etc., but the little tweaks in certain freq areas are well worth the effort. Tubes work very well with Khorns. I use a vintage Sansui AU-111 (6L6GC) for tube duty with the one pair in the man cave, but prefer the Sansui AU-11000 SS amp for those Khorns. Then again, I use a A/4500 crossover in that pair, with a completely straight (and sealed) tailboard, new K-55's (Atlas PD5H's) and BEC's CT-125 tweeters instead of the K-77's. The 11000 works better for me in that application. I put the tube amp on the Belles in that room and together, the two pair combo sounds better in that configuration. Sounds like you will have fun!!! Best of luck and keep posting about how your Khorns come along as you experiment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Sounds like you have a sweet setup! I'd venture to guess that putting a 3-way active in there with some signal alignment would be of benefit. Regarding replacing the midhorns, do a look up on "Vtrac" and read some of the reviews. One nice thing about the Vtracs is you can audition them in your home to hear what they sound like in your setup. If you have the budget...you could always do a look up on "Jubilee" and replace the Khorns with PWK's final project. He wanted to take the Khorn back to a 2-way design and some have that setup. If you want it 'balls to the wall' you can replace the stock K69 driver on that big top horn with a TAD 4002 driver (very expensive). Closest to you, there is a pair in Buffalo (NY) and Westhampton (CT) if you care to try to hear a pair. Oh...and there are some people who would swear to you that a anything digital (eq, active...) is to be highly avoided. I'm personally using one (EV Dx38 active xover) and have no issues with it so 'to each his own'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AltmanEars Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 Coytee I probably should have listened to you before since the Khorns will cost me more in the end than the Jubs. BTW I was not clear -- the Khorns are new so the crossovers are new and I dont plan to replace the crossover components. BTW I dont remotely believe in upgrading passive crossovers. The best passive crossover capacitors are more expensive than an active crossover and Klipsch dont require expensive amps. Fact is I'm thinking any SS amp will drive the bass and the tops can be driven by 2 to 4 300B or 2A3 amps which one can buy for reasonable money. I should point out that the new Khorn crossover is very good and on my pr. it does actually matter which top you attach to which bottom (they are matched) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 I dont plan to replace the crossover components Lemme ask a dumb question then...(as in I really don't know) If you go swapping the squawker and tweeter around...won't that demand you also tinker with the crossover? Are there some squawker/tweeter changes/upgrades that can be made while at the same time, still keep the stock crossovers?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AltmanEars Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 Sorry I will be going active eventually. This does not require me to tinker with the passive Klipsch crossover since I would be bypassing it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 How many hours do you have on them for breaking them in? 40 hrs. is minimum IMO and 100 isn't too many before really critical listening. Do these have the current AK-5 or AK-4 xovers? What cartridge in your Linn? Thanks -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 I can tell you from experience that swapping the K400/K55 for the V-Trac/2" BMS driver will totally blow you away! Unfortunately, I do not think it will work with the existing crossover. The ALK Universal is what is recommended I believe (Greg can chime in). I am using mine with 60 W push/pull amps (VRD's), a BlueBerry Xtreme preamp w/Cream (LOMC step-up), and Thorens TD-124/Zu DL-103R, and the sound is simply stunning! As good a system as I have ever heard in a living room, and that includes the 3-way Jubes I have heard. Bear in mind my Khorns have closed in backs just like the 60th's, but otherwise no different than yours. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AltmanEars Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 These are Klipsch B-Stock and they had the new Klipsch smell and no evidence they had been used except that the metal feet on the bottom were slightly scratched. As far as hours are concerned I can't say if they were ever used by Klipsch or a dealer. I would imagine that the crossovers are AK5 since that appears in the documentation. According to the serial number decoder these were the first speakers built in March of 2009. The Linn has a Klyde, but I havent listened to vinyl since the system has to be tuned prior to using a source that revealing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Here is another option that I did to my Khorns.Actually I heard this setup from a friend of mine and when I got my Khorns, I never even hooked up the Top Hat. This will completely 'blow away' a stock Khorn. I bought a pair of 1005B Altec Horns and 288-16K Drivers - Which probably cost around $1200 used. I built a simple single order crossover to match the new drivers. I still use the standard Khorn tweeter (I've fooled with other) and Khorn bass bins. Takes the Khorn to a Whole new level. - I did this 4 years ago and have not looked back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Congratulations on your new Klipschorns! I have done the active crossover and time alignment stuff (using a DEQX unit and triamping) and it really didnt affect the sound nearly as much as the preamp and amplifier combination. Yeah theoretically the drivers coudl benefit from some steeper slopes, some time alignment, etc. BUT before jumping into active crossovers I highly recommend trying some DHT amplification. BTW after getting my amp selected I dropped the DEQX from the system entirely, went back to one amp, an analog xover, etc. I have been enjoying the system ever since. Keep us informed of progress and enjoy that highly dynamic sound, you won't find it anywhere else IMHO. Regards, Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Mobley Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 What Tony said. Read carefully, it's worthwhile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTLongo Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 People on the forum may jump on me this but I've concluded that the midrange squawkers on my 2003 Klipschorns are "hot" and need to be dialed back some for a sweeter, less-forceful and more pleasant sound especially on symphonic music. Unfortunately the Klipsch crossover does not permit level-adjustment of the squawker and tweeter. My interim fix is an inexpensive two-channel graphic equalizer between my preamp and amp with the 500-2K hz range dialed back several db. My (much more expensive) permanent fix is a planned ALK top-of-the-line line crossovers + Trachorns upgrade that I hope to get in October. I trial-ran a pair of Trachorns with the stock Klipsch midrange driver for a week a while ago and they made a definite difference on vocals, instruments like oboe, and especially piano. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AltmanEars Posted September 1, 2009 Author Share Posted September 1, 2009 Tony I'm trying to read between the lines but it sounds like you used amps that you didnt like then triamped using a digital crossover which is likely only to work at higher volume (these devices are optimized for PA use where bit loss is not a real problem in practice --- most of them use cheap op amps etc... ) --- then went to a simpler higher quality topography and found that the sound is better. Question is, arent you better off with a solid state amp on the bottom and a really good SET on top rather than finding a SET to run fullrange. Isnt it easier to fit a camel through a needle than to find a SET with good bass (I think I read that in the bible) In other words if I were to run the speaker fullrange with a single amp I'd be shopping Wavelength, SOPHIA, Audionote, Cary, I might have to step up to a 211 tube amplifier... IF I was going to run the bass with SS I'd be open to Bottlehead 2A3 monoblock amps or some of the other sub $2000 offerings in the marketplace. Does that sound logical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Tony I'm trying to read between the lines but it sounds like you used amps that you didnt like then triamped using a digital crossover which is likely only to work at higher volume (these devices are optimized for PA use where bit loss is not a real problem in practice --- most of them use cheap op amps etc... ) --- then went to a simpler higher quality topography and found that the sound is better. Question is, arent you better off with a solid state amp on the bottom and a really good SET on top rather than finding a SET to run fullrange. Isnt it easier to fit a camel through a needle than to find a SET with good bass (I think I read that in the bible) In other words if I were to run the speaker fullrange with a single amp I'd be shopping Wavelength, SOPHIA, Audionote, Cary, I might have to step up to a 211 tube amplifier... IF I was going to run the bass with SS I'd be open to Bottlehead 2A3 monoblock amps or some of the other sub $2000 offerings in the marketplace. Does that sound logical. Don't worry about the Bass. Get the midrange right - That is where we live most of the time. If you find your system is bass shy, Get a REL Subwoofer. they are easy to integrate and since they have their own Amplifer, you won't goof up your midrange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Question is, arent you better off with a solid state amp on the bottom and a really good SET on top rather than finding a SET to run fullrange using a digital crossover which is likely only to work at higher volume (these devices are optimized for PA use where bit loss is not a real problem in practice --- most of them use cheap op amps etc... ) I'm a fan of active crossovers. I used my Jubilees (biamped w/active) with a Crown K2 on the woofers (something like 450 watts at 8 ohms??) and a 300B SET amp (Viva) for my top horns. I'm saying that to suggest your first comment can yeild VERY nice results and that in my opinion, your second comment isn't on target for all applications. (might be for some since I certainly do NOT know about all actives) My active worked very well for me, even at normal (or even low) levels. I had a wonderful experience with the 300B on the top horns...but frankly, 8 watts didn't cut it for me. I like to utilize a few extras or at least, have them handy. There was no denying however, that the 300B SET was a very very very sweet sounding amp!! Mated rather nicely with some serious horsepower on the bass bins too, until I approached the limitations of the 300B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 I have never heard the AK-5, but I was very impressed with the AK-4 in Indy. I didn't notice the sounds you describe. I am a HUGE fan of ML SL3s and I am sure I'd like the CLS. I'd expect your K-horns to sound a lot like the MLs. I thought the SL3s (SL3000?) that I listened to at Nicholson's sounded very like my La Scalas except with an enveloping soundstage and less smoothly integrated bass; more distortion? Try this. Pull one K-horn out of the corner far enough to easily touch the squawker horn. Play some music you find disappointing and handle the squawker horn, especially near the driver and the rear half of it. If you feel vibration, go to Ace hardware and buy a box of Rope Caulk. Cover at least the rear half of the horns with 2 or 3 layers, pressed on firmly. Let us know what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AltmanEars Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 A few points --- the midrange is fine with the futtermans but fixing the futtermans does cost more than a really good SET amp. OTOH futtermans may be significantly better than most SET amps. The only SET amp I heard was not in my system and was roughly 65K. Someone mentioned bass...I was looking for quality not quantity. I have a number of expensive subwoofers and I dont think they work well for music with Khorns. I think the Khorn may need a massive horn loaded subwoofer. I don't listen to the kind of music that requires a subwoofer which would match the Khorn seemlessly. Relative to the CLS. The CLS is more colored than the Klipsch and has no macro dynamics. There is a high freq glare on the CLS which is more prominent than the Klipsch. In my testing I have found that the room itself has a high frequency glare which causes some distortion of an unamplified voice. The other thing I found was that my Khorns are only 2db down in level at 20ft as they are from 3 feet. This must be from ceiling reflections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Someone mentioned bass...I was looking for quality not quantity. I have a number of expensive subwoofers and I dont think they work well for music with Khorns. I think the Khorn may need a massive horn loaded subwoofer. I don't listen to the kind of music that requires a subwoofer which would match the Khorn seemlessly. I agree. If you're looking for quality in the bass, I don't think adding powered woofers to your system is the answer. Khorn bass is wonderful when things are set up properly in a good room. It sounds to me like you've got a really nice setup, so I would stick with just the two 15" woofers in the Khorns and work around those. I have found that the simpler my system is, the better the sound quality. I don't think adding more electronics and wiring is going to be the answer for you. It will give you a certain amount of control and the ability to change parameters within your system, and that might be exciting for a while, but I'll bet eventually you'll tire of it and will be looking for answers again. I wouldn't say this regarding everyone's system, I'm saying this based on what I've read in your posts here - how I think you listen to music. Mike mentioned the V-Trac horn and BMS 2" throat drivers that I made and installed in his Khorns. I have the same setup and I can tell you it's the best sounding system I've ever heard. Switching to the larger format for the midrange on my Khorns gave me a lot of "answers" to questions I had been asking for twenty years. It was such a transformation for me that I was compelled to go into production with the V-Trac horns and I even have demo units that I spent about $2500 putting together that I send all around the country for Khorns owners to try out. You are welcome to get on the list and try them out yourself. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Mike mentioned the V-Trac horn Heyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy so did I!!! Unless I'm chopped liver!! I'm with the program!! [Y] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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