Trachorns in the House

[kevinmi]

This BMS driver is simply overkill!

I understand where ALK is coming from. I'm currently running my 2" drivers at -11db attenuation to blend in with the other drivers. There is a lot of overkill power wise with the bigger drivers, and there is no sense in spending extra money for expensive drivers if you can't use all that power anyway.

[Al Klappenberger]

Johnny,

I am not going to argue with you about this, hate me if you like, but you just don't understand what I am saying. Your analogies are not valid and I am not even going to bother to try to explain why. Instead, why don't you tell us what "120db extreme slope" means. I will bet you don't even realize you named it incorrectly. Fort that matter, tell us what a "slope" is.

Kevinmi,

You got it!

Al K.

[Pete H]

Horns arrived yesterday and were packed well as expected. It took a whole 30
minutes to install these thanks to the great instructions and pictures. I
put on the first CD and my jaw dropped, I really was not expecting a
dramatic difference in horns like I experienced with the ALK universals.
Wow, it was like I removed a rag or something from the old horns. I can
actually hear better separation of instruments, improved imaging and a
lifelike sound, like I was sitting front row/center. What was Klipsch
thinking when they casted the K-400? I believe the KHorns will be here
another 20 years if I last that long. Please don't tell me the 2" horns your
about to release will be much better, I don't think my bank account can
handle anymore upgrades. BTW: It seems that 0-3 is the right setting for the
Trachorns.

Are you using the stock driver or did you replace that when you got the horns?

[mikebse2a3]

PWK......"High SPL-Efficiency is inversely proportional to Distortion"

Distortion is very important reason that a 2" exit-high efficiency drivers can be very appropriate in the home enviroment...!

mike tn[]

[Johnny's Jill]

Johnny,

I am not going to argue with you about this, hate me if you like, but you just don't understand what I am saying. Your analogies are not valid and I am not even going to bother to try to explain why. Instead, why don't you tell us what "120db extreme slope" means. I will bet you don't even realize you named it incorrectly. Fort that matter, tell us what a "slope" is.

Al, I dont hate,or even have the slightest disregaurd for you. I apologise for not adding per octave to your crossover title. BTW, attacking my crossover knowlege was a nice spin on the subject.

My understanding of the 120db slope is: 120db is the rolloff at half or double the frequency. Right or wrong doesn't matter, you being the Author of the article on extreme slope crossovers, I am sure you can twist the meaning of anything I say to suit your argument. "TWIST AWAY"

I understand what you are getting at, and don't necessarily disagree, but it would be nice if you had actually heard the B&C and the BMS in a side by side comparison based your opinion on the sound rather than leanig towards one or the other base on specs.

Craig out.......

[Al Klappenberger]

Johnny,

Now that you seem to understand the concept of "slope", show me you understand the concept of "ultimate rejection". Once you do that I will be able to show you several examples of "overkill" in a crossover network. I don't want to do that becasue it's beside the point here, but I'll do it if I have to!

The fact that I can point to obvious problems in the technical specifications showing that the big BMS driver is a poor choice for the Khorn makes how they sound simply ANOTHER factor. I don't have to drive the Volkswagon with the Prosche engine to know the problems involved. BTW, I HAVE talked to people who have heard that driver and SEVERAL have pointed out the ramifications of trying to cut that 118 dB sensitivity down to the required 99 - 100 dB to match the woofer. You waste so much attenuation using the 0-1 or 0-2 settings on the transformer that you can't fine-tune the levels! There is just no intermediate settings left! You have spent big bucks to get 118 dB sensitivity just to hamstring yourself on flexibility! You are left with two settings, too loud or too soft. DUMB!

Al K.

[Johnny's Jill]

I can't believe I fell for it. Looking back over this thread I just realized you turned this thread in to an advertising campagn for a product you plan to market.

It's all about the mighty dollar isn't it? You are a heck of a salesman ALK, and probably a B&C dealer.

I am ashamed at myself for participating in your advertising. Won't happen again.

Ulitmate rejection is my response to your BS. You assume attenuation needs to be done at line level - Not today Al

Craig

[Al Klappenberger]

Johnny,

Well, there it is again! The abuse of the forum accusation! It's why I seldom post here.

This is the vicious circle is must continuously top-toe around. Because I happen to have the insight to identify some deficiency and have the ability to solve that deficiency with a suggestion that will sometimes become a product that people might want at a later time, I am unable ever again to address that deficiency for some narrow-minded individual who accuses me of playing salesman. If I say nothing from then on about it. I get chastised for not helping when I have the answer. I can't win! I think the actual situation here is you are defending a purchase that you have made. It's called buyer's remorse. I can't see any other reason why you would go so far to defend a hypothetical product unless you just spent good money on it. Maybe if you had read this before you spent your money, you would be thanking me instead. Others here who might be looking for a good driver to replace the K55 may have a different reaction if they make a more informed purchase because if it! And NO, I sell HORNS, not drivers! I am simply pointing out the negative side of something that no one else is willing to see or admit to about a driver that has been accepted as the best thing since sliced bread. I am NOT B&C dealer but reserve the right to become one if it happens that the DCM50 is the right driver for the Khorn. If I successfully develop a 2-inch horn my customers can put whatever driver they want on it or on any other horn they might want to buy! I am simply trying to help in that decision. If it happens that I can also support myself by offering a driver with the horn, what is the harm in that? This forum exists to promote Klipsch products. I support them also.

BTW: I'll keep my eye on my invoices to see how many extra drivers I sell from now on! If you did contribute to my sales somehow, I think you! For now, I have had enought of this. I'm outa' here!

Al K.

[Pete H]

All I wanted to know was if he was using the stock driver with the new horns, but after reading through countless threads, I'm going to make a statement, so take it for what it's worth. There are many people on here that sell items for modifying or upgrading, or building custom projects, SO WHAT! Weather it's Al or Dean or Bob or Greg or the many others who, for their passion for Klipsch and great sound, happen to have knowledge that they openly share, and opinions that will differ from time to time, big deal. This forum and the people that are on it, IMHO, promote the Klipsch products and name in a way that is unique and refreshing. I know that there are no less than 20 new Klipsch owners, based on my original purchase and finding this forum and I'm sure the numbers for you "Old Timers" [] are staggering, regarding how much Klispch gear was sold because of your involvement on this forum, and Klipsch knows that too. Al, keep posting as your information and services are valuable, along with everyone else's as the opinions will keep flying and that's all good too.

I read this entire post and Al wasn't selling anything IMHO!

[Al Klappenberger]

Proposed new forum rules for Klipsch related vendors:

1-No forum member selling any items remotely relating to Klipsch speakers my answer any questions even remotely related to his wares no matter how relevant experience gained in the research and development of those items may be.

2-No inference, mention or suggestion may be made about any product that might help a form member in his efforts to further his knowledge or improve his stereo if that person happens to offer that product for sale. It MUST only be done by other person who happen to know about such products.

3-Technical questions may only be answered by those who know nothing about the subject in keeping with the total amateur standing of the forum. Professional opinions are strictly forbidden.

4-No negative aspects of any item or product may be mentioned, suggested or investigated no matter how laughable the item except by those who have invested money in said them. No other “expert” can possibly offer an unbiased opinion of said item.

5-Vendors may only participate in threads about the weather, the color of their listening room, or what music they may be listening to so long as that music does no relate to any aspect of the speaker or any related shortcomings of that speaker.

6-No capitalism in the form of any hint of profits may be made on the forum. All members must swear an oath to extreme socialism.

7-It is up to other forum members to ensure adherence to these rules. The moderators have more important fish to fry!

Make it so....

Al K.

Now I REALLY am out of here!

[bliss53]

Al,

I understand your frustration. You have strong opinions and I enjoy the view points you present. There are many of us who know you have a business and also know you have experience. We are able to parse the two. Please continue to present your positions for the benefit of those of us who can think for ourselves.

Thanks.

[deafbykhorns]

Johnny,

Well, there it is again! The abuse of the forum accusation! It's why I seldom post here.

This
is the vicious circle is must continuously top-toe around. Because I
happen to have the insight to identify some deficiency and have the
ability to solve that deficiency with a suggestion that will sometimes
become a product that people might want at a later time, I am unable
ever again to address that deficiency for some narrow-minded individual
who accuses me of playing salesman. If I say nothing from then on about
it. I get chastised for not helping when I have the answer. I can't
win! I think the actual situation here is you are defending a purchase
that you have made. It's called buyer's remorse. I can't see any other
reason why you would go so far to defend a hypothetical product unless
you just spent good money on it. Maybe if you had read this before you
spent your money, you would be thanking me instead. Others here who
might be looking for a good driver to replace the K55 may have a
different reaction if they make a more informed purchase because if it!
And NO, I sell HORNS, not drivers! I am simply pointing out the
negative side of something that no one else is willing to see or admit
to about a driver that has been accepted as the best thing since sliced
bread. I am NOT B&C dealer but reserve the right to become one if
it happens that the DCM50 is the right driver for the Khorn. If I
successfully develop a 2-inch horn my customers can put whatever driver
they want on it or on any other horn they might want to buy! I am
simply trying to help in that decision. If it happens that I can also
support myself by offering a driver with the horn, what is the harm in
that? This forum exists to promote Klipsch products. I support them
also.

BTW: I'll keep my eye on my invoices to see how many
extra drivers I sell from now on! If you did contribute to my sales
somehow, I think you! For now, I have had enought of this. I'm outa'
here!

Al K.

Al, I get it, keep doing what you do best and ignore it. Some people just don't get it and never will.

Its called common sense. Without people like yourself, we wouldn't be talking about BMS or any other driver.

BTW: Common sense tells me the spec on the B&C seems better suited for the KHorn. I'll see you on the other side(AA forum).

Horns arrived yesterday and were packed well as expected. It took a whole 30
minutes to install these thanks to the great instructions and pictures. I
put on the first CD and my jaw dropped, I really was not expecting a
dramatic difference in horns like I experienced with the ALK universals.
Wow, it was like I removed a rag or something from the old horns. I can
actually hear better separation of instruments, improved imaging and a
lifelike sound, like I was sitting front row/center. What was Klipsch
thinking when they casted the K-400? I believe the KHorns will be here
another 20 years if I last that long. Please don't tell me the 2" horns your
about to release will be much better, I don't think my bank account can
handle anymore upgrades. BTW: It seems that 0-3 is the right setting for the
Trachorns.

Are you using the stock driver or did you replace that when you got the horns?

I'm using the stock driver except I pulled out the bug screen, not sure
if that helped. For me the K55 is fine, I only crank it up every once in
a blue moon. The 2" drivers and horn would be overkill unless you like
it 118db ++ And take it from experience (and my moniker) your hearing wont last long.

[DTLongo]

"Al, I get it, keep doing what you do best and ignore it. Some people just don't get it and never will. Its called common sense. Without people like yourself, we wouldn't be talking about BMS or any other driver."

I write this respectful of Klipsch's Amy Unger's admonition at the top of this string. I acknowledge and respect Klipsch's willingness to continue to permit such improving-on-Klipsch posts to appear on this site which, after all, is proprietarially Klipsch's.

That said, when one speaks of improvements to relatively new Klipschorns one is talking about pushing already relatively high end into the esoteric. And I did so with ALK upgrades to my relatively new 2003 Khorns and indeed there were differences that were palpable. Do a site search under my handle DTLongo and you can read about that. And yet and yet...ALK's improvements were definitely noticeable and welcome in some respects, yet I miss some, not much, but some high-frequency "tingle" of the original Klipsch crossovers on some material. And yet further, with the ALK upgrades everything in general sounds more separated, discernible and real. But yet further further, unrelated to what Al's Xovers do, I am still frustrated by still-anemic (to my ears) Klipschorn bass on symphonic material. On general rock-country-disco-heavy metal material, nothing beats the Khorns to my ears especially when you really want to crank them to concert volumes which they handle so well. On symphonic, though, ...?

So here we are chasing after our respective audio Holy Grails never to be fully fulfilled. But that's part of the fun of it (I guess).

[Pete H]

I'm using the stock driver except I pulled out the bug screen, not sure if that helped. For me the K55 is fine, I only crank it up every once in a blue moon. The 2" drivers and horn would be overkill unless you like it 118db ++ And take it from experience (and my moniker) your hearing wont last long.

I was just curious. I'm building a set of split Cornscala's and will be using a 1" atlas driver from Bob in a wood tractrix horn, and based on the response curve of the driver, that will perform fine with Bob's cast woofer and his 125 tweeter. Good thing fishing doesn't require great hearing[], I'm long overdue for a trip to Beaufort, S.C. to get some serious fishing done. Enjoy your new upgrades!

[BE36]

Al - Thanks for your Input.

I am auditioning several Mid horns for the next few months to finalize the Mid Section of a La Scala optimiztion project.

The B&Cs are worth a look & listen, $100 less per and will have a lot more options when setting attenuation.

I did not find these on my searchs. Thanks again.

[deafbykhorns]

But yet further further, unrelated to what Al's Xovers do, I am still frustrated by still-anemic (to my ears) Klipschorn bass on symphonic material. On general rock-country-disco-heavy metal material, nothing beats the Khorns to my ears especially when you really want to crank them to concert volumes which they handle so well. On symphonic, though, ...?

So here we are chasing after our respective audio Holy Grails never to be fully fulfilled. But that's part of the fun of it (I guess).

You may need to make a move away from Klipsch and audition PMC or something along those lines. Or a pair of these if you prefer horns- http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/p-39f-overview/ I
have another listening room/system and speakers for that type of music
which is free of horns. It's difficult to find a speaker that does
everything right.

I added a Velodyne DD-18 to take care of that anemic bass on the Khorns. It's setup to fill in that lower octave and not "in your face" type of bass, I don't even know its there.

Enjoy your quest!

[Deang]

Proposed new forum rules for Klipsch related vendors:

1-No forum member selling any items remotely relating to Klipsch speakers may answer any questions even remotely related to his wares no matter how relevant experience gained in the research and development of those items may be.

2-No inference, mention or suggestion may be made about any product that might help a form member in his efforts to further his knowledge or improve his stereo if that person happens to offer that product for sale. It MUST only be done by other persons who happen to know about such products.

3-Technical questions may only be answered by those who know nothing about the subject in keeping with the total amateur standing of the forum. Professional opinions are strictly forbidden.

4-No negative aspects of any item or product may be mentioned, suggested or investigated no matter how laughable the item except by those who have invested money in said item. No other “expert” can possibly offer an unbiased opinion of said item.

5-Vendors may only participate in threads about the weather, the color of their listening room, or what music they may be listening to so long as that music does not relate to any aspect of the speaker or any related shortcomings of that speaker.

6-No capitalism in the form of any hint of profits may be made on the forum. All members must swear an oath to extreme socialism.

7-It is up to other forum members to ensure adherence to these rules. The moderators have more important fish to fry!

Still laughing -- not bad Al!

[ngk]

Why can't Johnny 5 decide for himself which driver sounds better? Al has never claimed to have

golden ears and, as far as I am aware, has never claimed that the B&C unit sounds better or will

sound better.

What Al has made quite clear, even for the simple minded, is that a driver with 118dB sensitivity

will prove difficult to match - not necessarily impossible - with the other drivers in the Klipschorn.

There are alternatives with a more suitable sensitivity. Otherwise a new design auto-transformer

will be required with the necessary range of taps.

[mikebse2a3]

Sorry Dean...but I don't think Al's responses are funny...!

I believe AL-K and Johnny 5 both had very relevant points but once again AL is playing the victim of something that he started with a condensending attitude toward Johnny 5 who up until this point had been respectfully trying to offer IMHO a valid and different opinion.

Myself and others are using drivers with efficiencies that AL is saying isn't appropriate and I do understand his point which is also why I posted a response about the relationship of efficiency and distortion. AL made a statement that invited challenging opinions from others which is what he received.

Al needs to stop playing the victim..! because he brings alot of this on himself IMHO.

mike tn

Brian,

The more I look at the big BMS 4591 and 92 drivers the less I think of them. These drivers are just not appropriate for the Khorn and especially not for the Belle or CornScala. In the first place, they are very expensive and are designed for use down to 300 Hz. The Khorn should be crossed over at 400 Hz. The Belle Klipsch at 500 Hz. The CornScalas can even be crossed over higher yet. Maybe even at 600 Hz where the Cornwall is crossed over. The midrange horn is the determining factor. Nobody is going to cross over at 300 Hz for a horn designed to go down to 250 Hz! Where are you going to get a good 300 Hz crossover network? I am not going to make one. The second reason is the extremely high sensitivity of 118 dB they can give you. All you will be doing is wasting all that sensitivity by cutting it down to 99 to 104 dB to match the Khorn or Belle woofer and even less for the Cornscala. Why?

The other feature of the BMS driver is the coaxial tweeter option. Here again the B&C driver has this same capability. The DCM50 is a midrange driver that will go up to 10K. The DCX50 is the coaxial version that will extend its range to 16K. That's as highs as most of us can hear and as high as the K77 tweeter will go. If you really want to Hear 20 KHz, buy Bob Crites CT125 tweeters, patronize someone in our own community and save some money too!

You should really consider why it is you are interested in the BMS driver. Is it because you are hearing so much buzz about it here on the form, or is it for some serious reason?

AL K.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Johnny 5 said:

" All specs aside, the BMS is a fantastic sounding driver. I am sure the B&C will do fine as well, but I wouldn't discount the BMS."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Johnny,

I never said the BMS wasn't a good driver, I'm just saying that it's like shooting mice with an elephant gun! It's just too big and expensive for this application. There are too may other options once you move to a 2-inch driver. Why stick yourself with something obviously not designed for a living room situation at a big price!

Al K.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Johnny 5 sad:

"2 inch horn drivers were never meant for living room situations yet everyone seems to be using them.

I see your point but I certinly don't mind paying extra for a product that exceeds my needs as long as is performs well for my application.

More often than not I see one person in a vehicle that seats 4, with 300 hp driving 55 mph. "

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Al,

It seems I may have touched a nerve with you and this driver. I think I understand what you are saying, but how does it sound? I just want to open up and smooth out my mid range.

Brian
USAF Stationed in Florida

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guys,

All I am trying to do is to try to put a little common sense into what seems to be a snowballing trend. How much is enough? Anyone want to stat pushing for a 4-inch horn and driver? It would be the next logical step! If a little is good, a lot should be even better. As I see it, the problem is finding a better driver than the K55 in the Khorn. It's hard, if not impossible to do until you move to a 2-inch horn. I think the logical place to stop is with a 2-inch driver that works within the overall design of the Khorn. That is, a driver that is designed to be crossed over where the Khorn is designed to be crossed over. This is 400 Hz, not 300 Hz. It is has 104 dB of sensitivity (actually, I consistently measure 99-100 dB) so who needs a driver that has 118 dB of sensitivity? You are just going to have to cut it down. This BMS driver is simply overkill! The B&C driver I am suggesting is designed for a 400 Hz crossover and has a sensitivity of 106 dB. Who needs more? What happens when you put a Porsche engine in a Volkswagen? First thing the goes is the transmission, then the rear end, then the breaks. There are consequences to upsetting the balance. All good engineering is a balance of compromises! Actually, I have yet to get my hands on a set of B&C DCM50 drivers. That is a couple weeks off. Maybe it won't be worth a crap, but if it sounds as good as it looks on paper, it will fit the Khorn like a glove!.

Al K.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Johnny 5 said:

" Al, my point is simply the BMS is a tried and true performer, and there is no rule that says you must cross the BMS at 300hz, I am not sure anyone would want to.

I hope the B&C does as well, specs look excellent and I expect it will sound great.

What I cant believe is the voice of reason is coming from the designer of the 120db Extreme Slope Crossover. It would be like you saying 12db is steep enough.

Sorry for the hi jack... Craig"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Johnny,

I am not going to argue with you about this, hate me if you like, but you just don't understand what I am saying. Your analogies are not valid and I am not even going to bother to try to explain why. Instead, why don't you tell us what "120db extreme slope" means. I will bet you don't even realize you named it incorrectly. Fort that matter, tell us what a "slope" is.

Kevinmi,

You got it!

Al K.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PWK......"High SPL-Efficiency is inversely proportional to Distortion"

Distortion is very important reason that a 2" exit-high efficiency drivers can be very appropriate in the home enviroment...!

mike tn

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Johnny 5 said:

"Al, I dont hate,or even have the slightest disregaurd for you. I apologise for not adding per octave to your crossover title. BTW, attacking my crossover knowlege was a nice spin on the subject.

My understanding of the 120db slope is: 120db is the rolloff at half or double the frequency. Right or wrong doesn't matter, you being the Author of the article on extreme slope crossovers, I am sure you can twist the meaning of anything I say to suit your argument. "TWIST AWAY"

I understand what you are getting at, and don't necessarily disagree, but it would be nice if you had actually heard the B&C and the BMS in a side by side comparison based your opinion on the sound rather than leanig towards one or the other base on specs.

Craig out......."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Johnny,

Now that you seem to understand the concept of "slope", show me you understand the concept of "ultimate rejection". Once you do that I will be able to show you several examples of "overkill" in a crossover network. I don't want to do that becasue it's beside the point here, but I'll do it if I have to!

The fact that I can point to obvious problems in the technical specifications showing that the big BMS driver is a poor choice for the Khorn makes how they sound simply ANOTHER factor. I don't have to drive the Volkswagon with the Prosche engine to know the problems involved. BTW, I HAVE talked to people who have heard that driver and SEVERAL have pointed out the ramifications of trying to cut that 118 dB sensitivity down to the required 99 - 100 dB to match the woofer. You waste so much attenuation using the 0-1 or 0-2 settings on the transformer that you can't fine-tune the levels! There is just no intermediate settings left! You have spent big bucks to get 118 dB sensitivity just to hamstring yourself on flexibility! You are left with two settings, too loud or too soft. DUMB!

Al K.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Johnny 5 said:

I can't believe I fell for it. Looking back over this thread I just realized you turned this thread in to an advertising campagn for a product you plan to market.

It's all about the mighty dollar isn't it? You are a heck of a salesman ALK, and probably a B&C dealer.

I am ashamed at myself for participating in your advertising. Won't happen again.

Ulitmate rejection is my response to your BS. You assume attenuation needs to be done at line level - Not today Al

Craig

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Johnny,

Well, there it is again! The abuse of the forum accusation! It's why I seldom post here.

This is the vicious circle is must continuously top-toe around. Because I happen to have the insight to identify some deficiency and have the ability to solve that deficiency with a suggestion that will sometimes become a product that people might want at a later time, I am unable ever again to address that deficiency for some narrow-minded individual who accuses me of playing salesman. If I say nothing from then on about it. I get chastised for not helping when I have the answer. I can't win! I think the actual situation here is you are defending a purchase that you have made. It's called buyer's remorse. I can't see any other reason why you would go so far to defend a hypothetical product unless you just spent good money on it. Maybe if you had read this before you spent your money, you would be thanking me instead. Others here who might be looking for a good driver to replace the K55 may have a different reaction if they make a more informed purchase because if it! And NO, I sell HORNS, not drivers! I am simply pointing out the negative side of something that no one else is willing to see or admit to about a driver that has been accepted as the best thing since sliced bread. I am NOT B&C dealer but reserve the right to become one if it happens that the DCM50 is the right driver for the Khorn. If I successfully develop a 2-inch horn my customers can put whatever driver they want on it or on any other horn they might want to buy! I am simply trying to help in that decision. If it happens that I can also support myself by offering a driver with the horn, what is the harm in that? This forum exists to promote Klipsch products. I support them also.

BTW: I'll keep my eye on my invoices to see how many extra drivers I sell from now on! If you did contribute to my sales somehow, I think you! For now, I have had enought of this. I'm outa' here!

Al K.

[cjgeraci]

Proposed new forum rules for Klipsch related vendors:

1-No forum member selling any items remotely relating to Klipsch speakers my answer any questions even remotely related to his wares no matter how relevant experience gained in the research and development of those items may be.

2-No inference, mention or suggestion may be made about any product that might help a form member in his efforts to further his knowledge or improve his stereo if that person happens to offer that product for sale. It MUST only be done by other person who happen to know about such products.

3-Technical questions may only be answered by those who know nothing about the subject in keeping with the total amateur standing of the forum. Professional opinions are strictly forbidden.

4-No negative aspects of any item or product may be mentioned, suggested or investigated no matter how laughable the item except by those who have invested money in said them. No other “expert” can possibly offer an unbiased opinion of said item.

5-Vendors may only participate in threads about the weather, the color of their listening room, or what music they may be listening to so long as that music does no relate to any aspect of the speaker or any related shortcomings of that speaker.

6-No capitalism in the form of any hint of profits may be made on the forum. All members must swear an oath to extreme socialism.

7-It is up to other forum members to ensure adherence to these rules. The moderators have more important fish to fry!

Make it so....

Al K.

Now I REALLY am out of here!

Great post Al. Truly brought a smile to my face in light of much of the #$%& that has been taking place in this forum recently.

Don't let "Johnny" rile your feathers. His allegiance to another in the forum is clearly showing.

Just keep doing what you are doing - promoting common sense and a keen technical analysis to many who just do not want to read it.

Carl.