Philosophical Musings on My Lifetime Spent with PWK

[Mallette]

OK, I am not sure of the file size limitation and this is 2.2mb, but I am going to try it. It's 144dpi so should print reasonably.

If it doesn't go, I'll dumb it down to screen res and try again.

Dave

PS - Appears to be there. I was correct in the first place. Please forgive my cluttered mind. Also, it appears to have been published in 1961. I believe Paul told me he'd written the basics by 1947.

Enjoy. If you have not read this, you don't know Paul.

PWK8Cardsml.pdf

[smokiturtle]

What a Great Thread!

I feel truely blessed that I purchased Klipsch in 1985 isead of Polk.

It was down to two.

And I finally have a pair of Horns in my living room which I'm listening to through with a HHS 222 that I purchased from a forum member and an ADC TT that I purchased from my local record store.

I haven't listened to music on my La Scalas since but I still love them.

NASCAR sounds great on the La Scalas!

And so do movies.

[dtel]

if you are a devotee of the 8 Cardinal Rules

What are the 8 rules? When you say "rule" - what is the authority behind the rule? (I ask because I never heard this before.)

The 8 Cardinal Rules are from the seminal Audio Engineering Society paper PWK wrote in the 40's and based the K'horn on, as well as the rest of the Heritage line except Heresy...which he called that because it violated the 8 Card (as he called it). It is also the main basis for his status as "a legend in sound." I still have the copy he gave me. You might search the Fora for a copy. If you don't find one, let me know and I'll pdf a copy and upload.

Dave

Thanks for that Dave, copied it. I think someone who wants to glue some wood together and call it a NEW & Improved horn should read this especialy the part about the odds of building something new and having it "right".

You were lucky to have time spent with PWK. [H]

[DrWho]

I never got to meet the man, but I have always respected his engineering prowess. He and many others from his era had to wrestle through and establish so many concepts that we all take for granted today...I am always amazed at what they could accomplish with the tools they had available at the time.

[Mallette]

I never got to meet the man, but I have always respected his engineering prowess. He and many others from his era had to wrestle through and establish so many concepts that we all take for granted today...I am always amazed at what they could accomplish with the tools they had available at the time.

For sure, Mike. Marks comments on the "rattles" principle point that out. Even now one sees construction techniques inadequate to the considerable stress of loud music. One of the things you can "hear" from a K'horn is its near monolithic structural integrity. Few truly appreciate that.

Dave

[greg928gts]

My question is: What are you doing with a cutaway K'horn?????

Caretaking.

Granted, it is a sight to behold and contemplate, but looking at a cutaway K'horn is a lot like looking a beautifyl woman undergoing an appendectomy. That's cool, but I'd much prefer to get her sewed up and back in service...

I have had many "whole" Khorns. I'm enjoying the progression. My upgraded Khorns, which can barely be called Khorns now, are much more enjoyable than any other Klipsch speaker I've owned. So the cut-a-way is a most interesting conversation piece. Besides, I just like having one! Kind of like a 928!

So far, no one has produced a design that is any smaller that can reproduce a 32hz tone

Will Khorns really produce 32Hz? I don't know. I'd say 40Hz is more like it. Compare 32Hz with 200Hz from a Khorn. I bet there's quite a db swing there.

PWK may have had his 8 rules, but they were his rules. I wouldn't argue with most of those rules, but when it comes to weight, size, and cost, we all set our own standards (rules). I bet there are a lot of people out there like me who would be willing to put up with a little more weight, a little larger size and a little higher cost, if our cornerhorns also performed better.

Greg

[DrWho]

I'd say 40Hz is more like it.

Why do you say that?

[Daddy Dee]

Dave,

Thanks for sharing this.

Very cool.

[Mallette]

>WK may have had his 8 rules, but they were his rules.

Not really. This was an engineering paper, not a sales piece, and was reviewed and accepted by his peers.

Dave

[ClaudeJ1]

>WK may have had his 8 rules, but they were his rules.

Not really. This was an engineering paper, not a sales piece, and was reviewed and accepted by his peers.

Dave

When I spent a day with PWK, he took me into his library at the Hope factory and showed me the entire Hi Fi recording and playback chain. From Microphone, pre amp, amp, cutter head for discs, playback pre amp, power amp, and horn speakers.............all from Bell Labs.........1926!

His audio "bibles" were the papers by Steinberg and Snow along with the Fletcher stuff. He only owned ONE record and it was a very rare pressing of the original stereo broadcast (over 3 discrete channels) featuring Leopold Stokowski conducting..........all by Bell Labs in 1933. He showed me this after I gave him a funny look about the cheap cartridge he had on his turntable "I only own one record" he said, to my surprise twice. All his stuff was his own recordings on tape. He hated commercial recordings "dilute stereo" he said. But it's ALL in the "Klipsch Papers" and "Dope from Hope" I got in the 70's when I was in my early 20's.

Hi principles were all based on science, not opinion.

[seti]

Will Khorns really produce 32Hz? I don't know. I'd say 40Hz is more like it. Compare 32Hz with 200Hz from a Khorn. I bet there's quite a db swing there.

Greg

Absolutly the Klipschorns get down to the lower 30's. I've seen the measurements on my laptop with true rta. There isn't a big db swing either. They are pretty smooth unless something has happened to the klipschorn to make it malfunction or the room is causing major issues.

From an old thread featuring Artto's music hall. I didn't think it fair to post the klipschorn measurements without an explaination of how etc. It would be interesting to see the same measurements from a different source becuase the top end wouldn't have been rolled off but still a great curve.

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/19799.aspx

System/Room Frequency Response.

The measurements were taken from
the listening position using a McIntosh Real Time Analyzer &
calibrated B&K microphone I borrowed from a local dealer. This graph
is from the room as shown in the first photo in this post thread. It
was taken in 1982. The source test signals used were from the Crown Test
Equalization Record (vinyl LP). Playback was performed on a Linn Sondek
LP12 turntable, Decca International pickup arm & Decca Maroon phono
pickup. Amplification used Audio Research SP6A preamp & Luxman
MB3045 triode monoblock power amps.

The bass hump at 160Hz is due
to the Decca pickup/pickup arm. I suspect the rapid fall-off of
frequency response at 16KHz is also due to the Decca Maroon pickup which
uses a spherical (conical) stylus. In recent years, I’ve decided that
the room was “over-stuffed” with sound absorption materials in the rear
of the room and this may also have contributed to the high frequency
roll-off. This is one of the reasons for the new acoustical treatments
seen in the more recent photos. The 160Hz hump doesn’t seem to be
audible when using the Decca Maroon in an SME III pickup arm using the
medium size damping paddle. The other phono pickup I currently use is a
Shure V15 type VxMR which provides much smoother and more extended
response. After I complete the current acoustical & architectural
revisions I’ll re-run the tests both from vinyl & CD.

[Mallette]

One of the things Paul said to me, and I believe he repeated a lot, was that he would would build a speaker with an effective bass horn length of less than 32' when someone developed a 16 hz sound wave that was less than 32' long.

He had 16' organ pipes in mind when he developed the K'horn, as representing to his mind the lowest fundamental 99% of listeners would encounter. The form factor of the K'horn to represent the largest cabinet to be practical that could also meet the requirements of the 8 Cardinal Rules.

That's the way I understand it, anyway.

Dave

[homemadeheresy]

Very nice read, and I agree that he was an engineering genius to have developed such a speaker with the tools available to him at that time...

[Chris A]

Absolutely the Klipschorns get down to the lower 30's. I've seen the measurements on my laptop with true rta. There isn't a big db swing either. They are pretty smooth unless something has happened to the klipschorn to make it malfunction or the room is causing major issues.

Interesting.

[^o)]

[greg928gts]

I'd say 40Hz is more like it.

Why do you say that?

It seems as though I've seen curves that show this, but I didn't save them. Do you have any FR curves for the Khorn?

Greg

[DrWho]

I'd say 40Hz is more like it.

Why do you say that?

It seems as though I've seen curves that show this, but I didn't save them. Do you have any FR curves for the Khorn?

Greg

Yep. From 35Hz to 95Hz it's within about a +/-2dB window in a corner loaded anechoic environment. 6dB down at 30Hz, which is still within what would be considered usable bandwidth.

I wouldn't call the Khorn flat to 30Hz, but you're certainly going to hear 30Hz fundamentals.

[Chris A]

I wouldn't call the Khorn flat to 30Hz, but you're certainly going to hear 30Hz fundamentals.

...if you don't give credit to room gain...(I.e., I think this clause needs to be added to that statement.)

Chris

[Mallette]

I wouldn't call the Khorn flat to 30Hz, but you're certainly going to hear 30Hz fundamentals.

...if you don't give credit to room gain...(I.e., I think this clause needs to be added to that statement.)

Chris

If you are talking about correct corner placement, I don't understand why you'd mention it. It is part of the design and a K'horn not properly coupled to a corner is no more complete than without a mid range driver.

Dave

[Chris A]

If you are talking about correct corner placement, I don't understand why you'd mention it.

Precisely. When you talk about Khorn performance, you can't avoid talking about the room that it is in, unless you are using false corners.

This is an instance where "system" must include the room, not just anechoic tests.

[garyrc]

Will Khorns really produce 32Hz? I don't know. I'd say 40Hz is more like it. 

 

Mine will produce between 24 and 28 Hz, but it is very attenuated.  The bass is clean at ~~ 28, but a bit distorted at 24.  High Fidelity magazine (c. 1963 or '64) reported the same thing in their review.  I say "between" because the line on REW becomes dotted, rather than solid below about 28, but extends to 24, as I remember.  I never measured it (with REW, anyway) without EQ from both Audyssey automatic EQ and a bass control set by ear.  With the EQ, it resembles the curve people tend to hear as "flat" (Harmon?) but in reality is elevated in the bass.  Mine comes to a peak at about 43 Hz (which I don't mind at all -- may be a room peak Audyssey couldn't fix), then it drops as it moves deeper into the low bass, then curves up just a bit as it nears 24 Hz and the dottd line ... 

 

As PWK pointed out, there is very little on most Lps below about 40.  CDs and SACDs can be a different story, but I haven't had any distortion problems.  Blu-rays can go way down (a few reputed to go -- insanely -- to 5 Hz), so I crossover to a subwoofer when playing movies.

Edited March 19, 2015 by garyrc