aj01 Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 jwc - What's the difference between your plan and a sentry iv or 5050? (see link) http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/122227/1260918.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 This is why I was asking if the "point" of the doghouse was any important factor or merely came about for construction purposes. The mere fact that the Belle has a truncated "point" suggests to me this was more for building purposes than the need to have a wedge shaped area behind the woofer. Am I remotely close? Not exactly, except for the building part. The pointy part of the doghouse performs two functions at once. Its inner side provides necessary volume behind the woofer, so on that side its shape is not as important as its volume, although having non-parallel sides is a good thing, since it cuts down on unwanted resonances. However, the outer side is the main part of the bass horn, so its shape is critical. It's an indication of what a good engineer PWK was when you see a double use of a component.The Belle has a flat section in the middle, but it also has a much wider cabinet, so as usual in engineering, there's no free lunch. Whatever you gain here costs you there. The La Scala cabinet shape is very carefully thought out for an optimum combination of audio performance, ease of construction, minimum waste of wood (scrap amount), so it doesn't lend itself easily to having the shape of its bass horn altered.The LS may not be an "ultimate" in any particular area, but it's an affordable (to build and therefore to buy) high-performance speaker that continues to hold its own in the marketplace more than forty years after it was first designed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted April 23, 2010 Author Share Posted April 23, 2010 However, the outer side is the main part of the bass horn, so its shape is critical Ok, gotcha. That makes sense. I guess I'll just have to see how far down I can move the height of my LaScala by either cutting off the top and maybe setting the K510 up there or perhaps, maybe moving the LF section to its side. I'll leave my (cough) creative thinking (cough) to those better qualified than me. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 I'll leave my (cough) creative thinking (cough) to those better qualified than me. Have you thought of raising your ceiling and tilting your sofa back a bit, so your screen can be a little higher? []As well, if you have to fire through a relatively acoustically transparent screen, you could EQ the K510 as needed to compensate for the screen, just like the big theatres do. With the Dx38, it would be fairly easy to try a few different settings until you found a combination that sounded good to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 Will this be a center speaker for a Home Theater, or for a three channel music system, a la PWK's "Wide Stage Stereo?' If it is for a Home Theater, a simple solution might be to get acoustically transparent screen fabric (like from Seymore, which got great reviews by forum members) in a DIY frame, and put everything behind it with the proper alignment and height ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybobg Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 Bob, you spoke accurately! I wish I'd thought of this before...but to draw an analogy... the Belle has a 'truncated nose' (or cone as I called it) so Who... are you suggesting that the chopping off of the nose of the bass bin to make the Belle is a major change? Actuallty, I'm not that smart[^o)], but in retrospect I could have kept the flare angle closer to the orginal LaScala had I thought of that. It might be a consideration if I find my solution to be a poor adaptation. [8-|] I just tried to keep the volume close to the original. It does make a lot of sense that the flare angle is important. I'm even wondering now if the back ramps that I elongated and reduced the angle to end at the side of the bass bin might now be in question. I'm waiting for some response on my question on paralleling or putting in series two tweeters in the cabinet using a stock AA crossover to proceed with more wood cutting. bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 jwc - What's the difference between your plan and a sentry iv or 5050? (see link) http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/122227/1260918.aspx It is different. All horns are gonna have some similar properties. I would say that bin is more similar to an MWM. Fane had some cool versions of that too. The two I speak of are firing into a splitter like a lascala. This is all just having fun. I have drawn up several small bass bins to use as a center or even as mini surrounds. I'm no genius...all these things can be argued as beind similar to others. Will they sound good.....I don't know. I drew up and built two bass horns.....I sure loved the results.... jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted April 23, 2010 Author Share Posted April 23, 2010 Will this be a center speaker for a Home Theater, 5.1 yes however the same system will double when desired as a 2-channel setup (not 3 with the center) a simple solution might be to get acoustically transparent screen fabric Yes, I've been educating myself on screens. Looks like I can buy an electric Da-light brand, (non-tensioned and it will have to be ceiling mounted) for maybe $850 as I recall. If however, I can buy a perforated, tensioned electric ceiling mount for just over $2,000. So, I'm trying to see if I can save some expenses and still make things work. put everything behind it with the proper alignment and height ... I actually asked the wife about simply building a bonafide false wall. (using screws so it would be removable if absolutely necessary). This false wall could go the entire width of the room and I could leave cutouts for the speakers as well as make some cubbyholes for amps and the like. Then I could mount a fixed screen on the wall or even use that screen paint so there would be no screen. Simply put... I got vetoed [] So IF a projector & screen go into this room at all it will have to be a ceiling mount and I have to figure out if I can live with it hovering over the top of a Lascala or do I want to lower it down a bit. My current gut feeling from messing around with the screen I had is I think I would like it to be maybe 10" or so lower which means either mount my K510 on the floor or spend some cash for a perforated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 This probably won't address the WAF either, unless you have a dedicated room (?) but we are planning to have a gently curved acoustically transparent screen (the slight curve of the old CinemaScope, rather than the deep curve of 70mm Todd-AO, which requires correction), and since it is curved, it can't gracefully roll down. So, most of the time, ours will be pressed against the ceiling, fully tensioned and curved -- so we can see out of the windows -- and when we want to show a movie, it will swing down. We are brainstorming ideas on how to make it all but disappear while pressed against the high ceiling, but if we don't come up with anything, my wife is O.K. with it just being up there, since this is a dedicated room. Bless her heart. A 10 foot piece of acoustically transparent fabric + DIY frame costs less that either of the prices you quoted. My audio dealer says that "acoustically transparent" is like "clean coal," but I think with a little EQ it will be O.K.. Roy D tested a sample of screen fabric someone on the forum was using, and said they could get away without EQ. The forum member's name slips my mind for now ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 I think I would like it to be maybe 10" or so lower which means either mount my K510 on the floor or spend some cash for a perforated. If you mount the K510 in front of the upper part of the bass bin, as high as you can get away with so it shrouds/blocks the bass horn as little as possible, I think it would still sound pretty good. You could use a little table or even a number of bungie cords to try it and see how it sounds. As for the looks, if you put a suitably-coloured and acoustically transparent cloth/scrim in front of the speaker (not the whole wall unless wife is okay with it), the speaker would "disappear" and its appearance would be a non-issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted April 24, 2010 Author Share Posted April 24, 2010 its appearance would be a non-issue As much as I want a chance to ever understand this concept, I get a chuckle out of hearing it. You (nobody) really have no idea just how asthetic oriented my wife is. It's one of those retentive things... "Oh Richard, my sister might be coming over... we need to plant all the flowers, mulch the whole yard (about 3 1/2 truck loads), cut the fields... and by the way, these plants that you put here & here & here last year? (points...) I want you to move them to there & there & there. We're meeting them in town tomorrow afternoon for lunch and then are leaving to go to her inlaws house 3 hours away. huh? I'm going to break my neck doing all that so we can have lunch? And... did you notice the key word "might" be coming over? So, if they do not come over, I'm breaking my back for nothing? [] The story I tell people that is the real classic is "Marion.... in case you hear someone drive up later on, I'm expecting something from the UPS delivery man" (we live 15 miles out of town so anyone driving up is worth noting). Her response? "you better clean the upstairs bathroom and vaccume" huh? Regarding the screen... I did mention to her that we could probably make a screen frame that could 'fold' up to the ceiling and be a hard frame. I don't know exactly how I'd do it but I could envision a frame being built, some hinges... I told her the back side of this (which would become the visible ceiling when up) could be made to match the ceiling and have some molding on it if need be... vetoed She really has a focused vision of how she wants things to look and frankly, I am fine with that. I could care less if she painted things pink or purple or polka dots!! Things like that simply don't bother me. One of the reasons this basement is going so slow is she won't make her decisions as to how she wants something done. Example, "I want two lights. One on each side of this 6' wide opening to the next room". Great... what lights and how high and how wide so I know where to wire them? "oh... (points to a circle about 24" diamater) "somewhere around here or here or here" huh? "I won't know until you put them up" huh? and then if you don't like them I'll have to disassemble everything, move the box, rewire, more drywall to patch the hole just so I can move them? yes Not kidding.... she didn't like where the light fixture was in our dining room so I had to drill 4" holes in my ceiling, move the box about SIX to eight inches, rewire things, remount the light and then fix the old hole. I figure I've done enough work around here to have built this darn house twice because of redoing things over & over. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 Not kidding.... she didn't like where the light fixture was in our dining room so I had to drill 4" holes in my ceiling, move the box about SIX to eight inches, rewire things, remount the light and then fix the old hole. Has she heard of track lighting? "Move it six inches? No problem!" Seriously, you're a very patient man. She must be a wonderful wife for you to go through all that willingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted April 24, 2010 Author Share Posted April 24, 2010 Has she heard of track lighting? Yep and she doesn't like it. "Move it six inches? No problem!" Seriously, you're a very patient man. Been accused of that from time to time. Sometimes it's meant as a compliment, sometimes I'm being laughed at. She must be a wonderful wife for you to go through all that willingly. She is and what a slimeball I must be to talk about her like this on a site like this where she has no way to give the other side of the story! [:$] [6] She has another light she wants moved. This one perhaps 6-8 inches. Only problem is it's located at the peak in our new dining room. This peak is 19' high and I've had to tell her that she just might have to live with this one being not exactly where she wants. This light is pretty much dead center but she wants it slightly off center so she can (artistically) move the table out another half foot....sometimes having a wife with an artistic eye can be great....other times it can become life threatening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 Has she heard of track lighting? Yep and she doesn't like it. "Move it six inches? No problem!" Seriously, you're a very patient man. Been accused of that from time to time. Sometimes it's meant as a compliment, sometimes I'm being laughed at. She must be a wonderful wife for you to go through all that willingly. She is and what a slimeball I must be to talk about her like this on a site like this where she has no way to give the other side of the story! She has another light she wants moved. This one perhaps 6-8 inches. Only problem is it's located at the peak in our new dining room. This peak is 19' high and I've had to tell her that she just might have to live with this one being not exactly where she wants. This light is pretty much dead center but she wants it slightly off center so she can (artistically) move the table out another half foot....sometimes having a wife with an artistic eye can be great....other times it can become life threatening. We have all seen what you have done to here room with those big black jubilee's : ) She must be a very tolerent women : ) Congratulations. I would find a way to quit moving and reinstall lights although you must be good at that by now. Could you come over and move lights for my girlfriend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 Bob, you spoke accurately! I wish I'd thought of this before...but to draw an analogy... the Belle has a 'truncated nose' (or cone as I called it) so Who... are you suggesting that the chopping off of the nose of the bass bin to make the Belle is a major change? Only to the flare rate...correct me if I'm wrong, but the Belle doesn't dig as low as the lascala? Bob is correct in that I was asking about the volume of air for the backchamber. I personally don't see why the LaScala would know nor care if the back chamber was pointed as it is, or square or oval, as long as the volume was correct. Within some practical limits, the shape of the back chamber has no effect (for example, don't try making 4cu ft happen by connecting a million straws together). This is why I was asking if the "point" of the doghouse was any important factor or merely came about for construction purposes. The mere fact that the Belle has a truncated "point" suggests to me this was more for building purposes than the need to have a wedge shaped area behind the woofer. Am I remotely close? The point is really only going to be important to how it affects the flare rate of the horn (assuming you keep the rear volume consistent). If you can keep the flare rate constant, then changing the point shouldn't make a huge difference...maybe slightly different polars, but it might not even be noticeable. Btw, I would have no clue if you or I were remotely close...we're both in the same learning boat. I just like to talk and hope someone corrects me when I'm wrong. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj01 Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 I've seen diagrams of the la scala horn where the mouth has a flare, then straight (the space along the back wall), then the flare. If you angled the back wall and then angled the side out, how much more low end could you get? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted May 2, 2010 Share Posted May 2, 2010 Does the nose-cone of the LaScala have to be pointed or is that for cosmetic/build reasons? I has to be pointed to get the flare for the hornCould a bass bin alone be designed to the technical paramaters of the LaScala (internal volume in that cone area) however, instead of making that area pointed, make it square. yes, make it a box. how to word this... inside this box would be a seperate chamber, dead center in front. Perhaps sealed from the back chamber of the K33 or, if there is some way to do it, not sealed. (this is where you guys come in since I know so little about this) Put the K510 in this center chamber so it's firing directly forward and surrounding it (behind the motorboard) would be the back chamber for the driver in the woofer bin. Or how about an LB-76 laying on its side with the K510 in the "top"? The K510 would go where the K-500 is shown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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