Tube rolling of yester-year....

[Coytee]

When I discovered a higher grade of sound (over that of my Yorx 8-track/phono/AM-FM all in one super stereo with 4" full range drivers included), it was right at the tail end of the tube era.

I remember seeing McIntosh amps in the store but, the salesman was showing me solid state telling me how it was sooooooooo much better than tubes and tubes were going the way of the dinasaurs and...blah blah blah.....

Today, we have people that buy a tube preamp, amp and roll various tubes in it in their search for sonic nirvona. This is fine, dandy and I've done it myself.

What I'm wondering though is, back 50 years before the advent of solid state and tube items were as common in our society as taxes are, did people roll tubes back then in order to find their sonic nirvona?

I was either not around or simply too young to be aware of the culture back then. I have a little voice in the back of my head that says people bought the item, took it home, plugged it in and enjoyed it. They did not get into the focused process of trying this tube....that tube....another tube.... as they try to reflavor their sound.

Since I wasn't there, I thought I'd ask here and if anyone here WAS there 'back in the day' perhaps you'd chime in with your opinion.

Ultimately, I'm wondering if this tube rolling is more of a current day reality, as people try to find some elusive sound, perhaps something from their past. Or if perhaps, back in the day, people were simply easier to please and accepted that which was before them.... or perhaps, maybe people back then rolled tubes as actively as some people do today.

My gut feeling is, this tube rolling is more of a current day reality (not that it didn't maybe happen back then, but not as prevelant as today). Perhaps it's been fueled by the internet and the wider audience of opinions the internet brings each person.

Thoughts?

[mark1101]

I rememeber my dad rolling tubes out of and into our TV. Routine was to take them to the drug store and test them when the picture went bad. Replace the bad ones. I was just a young kid bit can remember about a buck a tube.

[frankphess]

While I also was too young, it seems "back in the day" tubes were manufactured to a higher standard, and a lot of them for the military. For whatever reason, current production tubes just don't sound as good as the ones made "back in the day".

[tube fanatic]

Yes, "tube rolling" is definitely a modern phenomenon!!! Keeping in mind that tubes can sound slightly different from one another (one may have a bit more noise, or be more microphonic), it was far less of a concern 40-50 years ago than it is currently. And if one did replace a tube, and found it was a bit too noisy for example, they just went out and bought another and popped that in. Most folks, even those who were into "hi-fi", didn't get overly taxed over such minor issues. I know audiophiles who lose sleep at night agonizing whether the black plate tube they bought was really worth the money, instead of just going with the regular gray plate version. The bottom line is your satisfaction with the sound. If it's pleasing, why bother trying to extract that extra quarter percent of "whatever" from the sound? As a tube amp designer/builder, I advise people to just sit back and listen. If they like what they hear, they are done!

[Mallette]

To some degree, 50's audiophiles rolled tubes, and everything else, to a much higher degree than today. When you talk about "just plugging it in and enjoying it..." you are talking about the same people who buy a Wave radio and do the same today. Tubes were not only not special, they were ubiquitous.

"HiFi" was big Magnavox, Curtis Mathes, etc. consoles ready to plug and play. Those for more serious listeners might have a Garrad changer and a MM cartridge, but that wasn't "audiophile." "If you built it yourself, you are almost CERTAINLY an audiophile..." was the rule of the day for amps, preamps, and speakers. Even R2R came as "decks" with no electronics, which could be matched with either purchased or DIY head/preamps.

At the extreme, tubes would be matched electrically to extremes.

The interesting thing is that, while proportionally their numbers were probably lower than us self-proclaimed "audiophiles" today, almost everyone knew what your were talking about when the word was used and their were endless lampoons and such in the general media of them with thier huge speakers breaking windows and such.

There was a considerable sub group largely into sounds, with steam engines being perhaps the most notorius. Bear in mind that it had only been a few years that audio equipment and recording technology had advanced to the point of being able to produce something like real fidelity and it was still quite a novelty. Today we expect to be able to tell the difference between a Strad and an Amati on any decent system. At that time, you could tell a violin from a clarinet on most systems.

There were giants in those days. If you can find an archive of old Radio Experimenter magazines (which, as with Stereo Review morphing into Home Theater to stay afloat as the focal point of technology changed morphed from radio to audio before going away) you'll find extraordinary articles for the audiophile, as well as the great old suppliers like Lafayette and Allied.

I was but a child then, but I paid attention.

Dave

[tube fanatic]

Well, I certainly don't agree with you based on my experience back then with folks who used K-horns, among other great speakers, coupled to some very fine electronics (I'm talking about Macs, Marantz, etc.). But, that being a matter aside, one has to consider the fact that auditory memory is extremely short. In the time it takes to listen to a song, shut the amp, remove the tube in question, replace it with another, turn it back on and let it warm up, your brain no longer remembers "exactly" what it heard previously (lots of studies on that over the years). In addition, you have to consider the aspect of psychoacoustics- how often do people listen to their systems and think that there could be no possible improvement, only to listen again 2 days later and feel that it sounds like crap? Back in the late fifties/early sixties the audiophiles I knew seemed to have much more of a sense of the realities of those factors and didn't obsess over minute nuances as they do today. It's too easy to convince yourself that the tube that you just paid $200 for sounds better than the NOS GE which it replaced.

[joshnich]

I certainly wasnt an audiophile then but I owned a some pretty cool gear. I bought a couple of Mac MC30 that I believe were army surplus for 25 bucks each. (ok maybe 50) . I never thought of rolling tubes. I would every now and then take the tubes out and take them to safeway and test them on the tube tester. But that was it. I never had to replace the tubes. I bought the MC 30s in I believe 1969 or 70 and ended up using them for years. I sold them probably 12 years ago before I was really connected on line or on this forum. I get sick when I thin about it but I sold the pair for 150 bucks at a garage sale.

Josh

[mcp]

This is an interesting topic that I have been thinking about since last weekend...I have a friend whose house is like a museum of audio equipment. Many of the finest vintage tube amps ever made. He also has a room crammed with NOS tubes...tens of thousands. When I recently went to his house to buy tubes for my first tube integrated, a Scott 222C, his advice was, that while he would certainly sell me Mullards, Telefunkens etc, to just buy some decent tubes that tested strong and would be inexpensive. He then mentioned that he never uses any of his expensive tubes in any of his own equipment. I think he was trying to tell me a little something about tube rolling...

[tube fanatic]

This is an interesting topic that I have been thinking about since last weekend...I have a friend whose house is like a museum of audio equipment. Many of the finest vintage tube amps ever made. He also has a room crammed with NOS tubes...tens of thousands. When I recently went to his house to buy tubes for my first tube integrated, a Scott 222C, his advice was, that while he would certainly sell me Mullards, Telefunkens etc, to just buy some decent tubes that tested strong and would be inexpensive. He then mentioned that he never uses any of his expensive tubes in any of his own equipment. I think he was trying to tell me a little something about tube rolling...

Your friend is right on target!

[Audible Nectar]

This is an interesting topic that I have been thinking about since last weekend...I have a friend whose house is like a museum of audio equipment. Many of the finest vintage tube amps ever made. He also has a room crammed with NOS tubes...tens of thousands. When I recently went to his house to buy tubes for my first tube integrated, a Scott 222C, his advice was, that while he would certainly sell me Mullards, Telefunkens etc, to just buy some decent tubes that tested strong and would be inexpensive. He then mentioned that he never uses any of his expensive tubes in any of his own equipment. I think he was trying to tell me a little something about tube rolling...

Your friend is right on target!

I DISAGREE. I think vintage tubes are meant to be HEARD (especially in GOOD gear), and if a fellow has a couple thousand in the stash - and especially those long lasting tubes like Telefunken 12AX7, why NOT use them?

While I DO have tubes that I stash and intend to leave unused, I have "lesser condition" (like labels rubbed, or mild use already, but act electrically like NOS ones do) that I use in my gears, and save the perfect ones for "investment". With the exception of ONE specific tube (Mullard sq getter 12AU7), every other tube version I have contains in part a stash that I am willing to USE.

And if one has gears that don't work the hello out of the tubes, this can be done freely with a reasonable stash and still have lots of tubes to keep for preservation.

[tube fanatic]

The nice thing about this hobby is that everyone is equally correct/incorrect since there's no way to know what the other person is hearing or what their brain is perceiving. Tubes are in the same vein as cables, connectors, AC outlets, power cords, and so on. Does anyone remember, years ago, all the discussions about placing coins or exotic wooden discs on top of your components to greatly improve the sound (I bet the folks who came out with those Mpingo discs laughed all the way to the bank)? Same thing! I just don't like to see people wasting hard earned money chasing something which they probably can't achieve- better to spend it on your favorite music. Discussions about all this have been raging for decades and won't be resolved here..........................

[tube fanatic]

I think you are mistaking the rationale here. The nice thing about a forum is that is allows not only for information to be exchanged, but also for the classic "point/counterpoint" discussion. I'm not asking anyone to agree with me, and don't care if they do or not! But, sometimes, by looking at a situation through the experiences of others, one may decide to completely change or modify one's own point of view. When I get together with fellow audiophiles we often have very heated discussions about all kinds of things, but we all come away with thoughts and ideas that we may not have considered before (a recent discussion was whether there are audible differences between brands of metal film resistors). So, please don't look at the comments of guys like me as lecturing. We are just offering points of view based on our personal experiences. If that can help someone, great. If not, that's fine too.

[Cornman]

Mark 1101 those are wonderful memorys you bring back of my dad swapping out TV tubes.

Mr. Deneen those are wise words of wisdom -in my book. Thanks for the reminder.

Cornman

[Mallette]

I've never considered lecturing a derogatory or negative word.

Indeed, Herr Professor. For instance:

"The nice thing about this hobby is that everyone is equally correct/incorrect since there's no way to know what the other person is hearing or what their brain is perceiving."

How many lectures have I made on this very point in these pages over the years?

Can't be said often enough given how few here ever seem to really understand it.

Dave

[gartenman]

I DISAGREE. I think vintage tubes are meant to be HEARD (especially in GOOD gear), and if a fellow has a couple thousand in the stash - and especially those long lasting tubes like Telefunken 12AX7, why NOT use them?

I agree with you Audio Nectar. With preamp tubes lasting up to 10,000 hours I can't believe I couldn't scrounge a pair or 2 to use especially if I had tens of thousands. I've done blind A/B tests more times than I can remember and NOS won 9 times out of 10. As it is your 1st tube integrated he may not have wanted to sell you something better until you find out if you truly like the amp. Why buy the best and decide a week later you don't like integrateds?