Hajj Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 Hi, I guess that after a few weeks of lurking, it is now time for me to start getting active on the forums. It's good to see a single brand forum with such activity (only forum I ever saw with the same activity was a car forum dedicated to porsches 914...) Introduction: My name is Nick, a few months ago, i dropped all of my SS amp system (rotel amp and preamp, B&W 3 way speakers) in favor of a minimalistic approach materialized in the form of a Decware CSP2 preamp into a Decware SE 34-I integrated amp (the first generation one, 3.5 - 7 wpc, "quad mono") coupled to full-range, high efficiency, single driver speakers (audio nirvana super 12, rated at 95 db/1w/1m), in bass reflex enclosure that will be soon be ditched and replaced by "Metronome" enclosure. Source is a dedicated laptop with around 1.5tB of music ripped in lossless flac format, played through foobar and asio4all into an external HRT music streamer II DAC. Just a quick note: the SE 34-I is by far the best tube amp i have auditioned, at full volume, with my head burried into the speakers I can't here any hum, details are sometimes more than your recordings like to show, and it was with this amp/speaker combo that i discovered the 3 dimensional music... Anyway, now that i knew what a single driver full-range speaker can do, and having been infected with the sweet desease commonly known as "upgraditis" I started looking for a multi-way system with a high enough efficiency to match my amp output. So here I am contemplating a set of klipsch horn loaded speakers. Thanks to the incredible wealth of knowledge on the forums here, I went from wanting La Scalas but was put off by the comments about the lack or bass (an independent subwoofer is out of the question) to contemplating a full Conrscala DIY build, only to get lost in the bottomless pit of crossovers, drivers and horns choices.... My music librabry contains everything from Opera and complex classical music all the way to Led Zepplin and a solidly anchored love for complex jazz (which showed the single driver's setup limitations)... My listening room is about 11x9 ft with a 7 ft ceiling (but i might relocated to a bigger house soon...) bottomline is: HELP!!! [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laager Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 I went from wanting La Scalas but was put off by the comments about the lack or bass (an independent subwoofer is out of the question) to contemplating a full Conrscala DIY build, only to get lost in the bottomless pit of crossovers, drivers and horns choices....(but i might relocated to a bigger house soon...) Only one choice for you, then. Klipschorns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 Welcome to the forums! The 11x9 room would be difficult to put in the fully loaded horns (LaScalas, Belle Klipsch, Klipschorn). I have La Scalas powered by 2A3 amps at 3.5 wpc. It works for me, and I personally have plenty of bass. A little more a little lower would be fine, but I am ok with it. I think I have a great match between my preamp, amps and speakers. Many of the different tweaks are to try and get that last little bit out of the speakers. I'm not saying there are some big differences at times, but even stock, most of the lineup will blow you away. Replacing old caps, etc., for the most part, just gets them back into spec. You've given the genres you listen to... how LOUD do you listen? It can't have been too loud with the single driver speakers and those amps. And where are you located. Perhaps someone close by with some of the products could have you over for a listen. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hajj Posted June 24, 2010 Author Share Posted June 24, 2010 Reading my post a second time, It might easily be understood that I do not want to go the DIY route, because of the complexity of the build... Sorry for that, what I meant to say is that I need advice in choosing the right combination of drivers, x-overs and horns for a cornscala DIY build, or in other words, what is the "default" setup for a cornscala? I read a lot of good things about Bob Crites' sourced stuff and also Al's x-overs, But Bob offers a huge selection of drivers, and it's all too easy to get lost choosing the right combination, especially considering that i am limited to a budget of around 1-1.2k$ for hardware excluding woodwork. I have previously built T-amps, gain stage tube pre's as well as the cabinets in which sit my current drivers... So I should have no problem building the x-over networks (provided I can get a complete kit) or the cabinets for the CS... Please bear in mind that for the past year I have been ear deep into single driver full rangers, and now that i decided to go multi-way, i want something that wood work better than decent from the onset.... Tweaks and upgrades will come later Plus, will a cornscala have enough Spl and low end bass with an EL-34, 7 wpc amp to make the kind of music I listen to enjoyable? for reference, with my current setup, I rarely ever go beyond 2 watts.... (Klipschorns, while seeming like the best alternative, are just too bulky to fit in my room...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 Klipschorns, while seeming like the best alternative, are just too bulky to fit in my room... As would LaScalas...The Cornscala is pretty much the size of a LaScala, too. You are looking at a 2 x 2 ft footprint. THe Khorn actually takes less space since they tuck into the corners. I can easily do 90-95 db + with my Moondogs, but I rarely listen that loud. Give Bob a call or shoot him an email. He won't steer you wrong if you want to go that route. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hajj Posted June 24, 2010 Author Share Posted June 24, 2010 Hi Bruce, Thanks for the input, I should mention that I am lucky enough to share my house with a girlfriend that's as much an audiophile as I am, If not more... Yup, I'm on the lucky side here, and would very much like to keep it this way, and the Khorns, well, it's the vertical and bulky looks of them that makes them a no-go with her. So i thought about trapezoidal shaped split-box cornscalas, much like the Khorns, to tuck in the corners, while maintaining a relatively acceptable height... Anyway, it's all speculation before I have enough data to back it up... I guess I will contact Bob directly, but i would also like to gather impressions from forum members who went the CS route... Regards Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hajj Posted June 24, 2010 Author Share Posted June 24, 2010 Just had an interesting email exchange with Bob Crites. A great guy who took the time to answer all of my questions, and always within minutes of my reply. Thank Bob! Using Bob's great input and suggestions to my perfectly absurd questions, I'm now leaning towards a setup with a split single bass bin/speaker shaped a la Cornscala DBB with triangular ports, with a Atlas PD-5VH/K401 mids and CT125 tweeters... (the bass bin's shape is to make speaker placement easier, as well less invading into the room) Bob could not tell if any mods to a standard La Scala crossover would be needed in such a case, and suggested I contact James Cullison for extra info and crossover selection... So here I am wondering if the single bass bin design could work. Any input will be highly appreciated. Oh and JWC, please do not hesitate to chime in... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 Given your room size, a single-driver setup would be ideal. Perhaps you should flesh that route out a bit more before giving up. Some full-range drivers like AER, Gotoh, SEAS, etc. offer 20Hz-+20KHz range and impart a intimacy and staging that most multi-driver speaks can not duplicate or approach. The cabinet size can be problematic in your room but there are designs with small footprints that can be seen and discussed at most SD/FR forums out there. Another option would be the Open Baffle design which has plenty of followers who moved from full-range cabinet designs. I'm not completely convinced that the OB is the best option but it certainly has its devotees. If you're sure you can't get what you want without a xover, then there are coaxial and duplex speakers like Tannoy and vintage Altec Lansing which offer plenty of bottom end without a big footprint. Of course, Klipsch and other efficient 3-way speakers can work in your room too but keep in mind that you really need at least 12' from the drivers to listening position to properly mix the sound. Any shorter and you tend to lose cohesiveness and can readily discern separation between the drivers. With Klipsch, you have a very nice design that most folks can be very happy with that's also simple enough to encourage a lot of us to tweak and modify to suit our needs and taste. There is no 'best' speaker out there but every design has its superior qualities as well as its compromises - you just have to decide which is the best for you. Given your constraints - 11' x 9' room and 7 watts/ch, I'd still consider a Single Driver design but regardless of your choice, there's lots to learn and plenty more decisions to make. Have fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 (but i might relocated to a bigger house soon...) Wait. Get Klipschorns. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnatnoop Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 (but i might relocated to a bigger house soon...) Wait. Get Klipschorns. Dave I would wait and spend my money after i moved also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runninshine Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 Get La Scalas and when you move get Khorns. Welcome to the madness!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkrop Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 1) where do you live? 2)914 forum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hajj Posted June 25, 2010 Author Share Posted June 25, 2010 @Jbryan, I am very happy with my single-driver setup and the clarity, staging and intimacy of the setup is what got me into the wole audio upgrade vortex... The reason for eyeing a multi-way system is mostly out of curiosity, i just needed to experience what a good multi-way horn-loaded system sounds like. The audio nirvana drivers btw are far superior to what their critics say about them, but do take ages to break in, mine took around 150 hours, but i was not playing them very loud, the 12" I have are said to cover 22hz to 20khz at +/-3db, while i don't think they can go that low, they sure produce much more bass than people would expect, haven't tested, but I can trust my ears... For the sake of discussing other options, there's something about OB design i just don't like, first of all, most of these use x-overs (actually all of the setup i have seen use x-overs), and their efficiency tend to be on the lower side, plus, these always need a seperate subwoofer for decent bass, and i just can't get myself to accept the idea of an independent subwoofer.... Thanks for weighing in @ Runninshine Madness? only a different manifestation of my previous insanity where Istarted with one car restoration project, and ended up with 3 cars, to "test different approaches and performance upgrades, and have an A to B to C setup to compare"... And, to be really honest here, I just "need" to work on a new project, so might as well tackle something that would take some time before I "need" to start a new one again... If you squint hard enough, and twist your head upside down you just might see this making some sense to those out there that claim to be sane... @ Bkrop I currently reside in Lebanon, as in Beirut Lebanon, but i'm constantly on the move, next stop is London (where the bigger house might be)... used to be an active member on 914club.com before the 914world/914club schism.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 Klipschorns! Worth the wait, a good "ergonomic" footprint, and any size room after you move? No problems!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted June 26, 2010 Share Posted June 26, 2010 Hi Bruce, Thanks for the input, I should mention that I am lucky enough to share my house with a girlfriend that's as much an audiophile as I am, If not more... That's great! And she will move to London with you as well? Couldn't ask for more. Yup, I'm on the lucky side here, and would very much like to keep it this way, and the Khorns, well, it's the vertical and bulky looks of them that makes them a no-go with her. Have you seen a pair in person? They are a little tall, but in a real room, and in person, they don't appear quite as bulky. If room is an issue, you could check out the modded Heresy II (larger cabinet and larger tractrix mid horn. It would be similar to Tangent 400 (same guts and crossover as a Heresy II, only a larger, ported cab). The Tangent 400 has a not so good cab, but if you built your own you could do them right. I have Heresy IIs and a co-worker has a set of the Tangents. I've been VERY tempted to build the larger cabinets for my HIIs. Bob's great, and I know he will always go above and beyond to help. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted June 28, 2010 Share Posted June 28, 2010 I agree with the Heresy option. They are much, much better than some folks would have you believe. Especially for smaller rooms. The ultimate solution, however, is to buy a pair of fully horn loaded speakers. Either the Belle/La Scala or even better, the Klipschorn. These speakers sound much more coherent in larger rooms, but do okay in smaller rooms. I would buy for the future rather than current circumstances. If I had my choice, I would go for Klipschorns now, knowing that even in less than ideal room circumstances, you have one of the very best loudspeakers money can buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted June 29, 2010 Share Posted June 29, 2010 9 by 11 room! Are you kidding me? I love Khorns, but I would look at something smaller. and consider a sub-woofer if you don't have one alreay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hajj Posted June 29, 2010 Author Share Posted June 29, 2010 9 by 11 room! Are you kidding me? Actually, upon further measurments, it's more like 13x16.5... My brain's wired in metric sizes, and it seems my metric measurements were off.... In meters the room actually 5x4 meters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted June 29, 2010 Share Posted June 29, 2010 I'd rather have bigger speakers in any room..... The room will always be a compromise so why should the speaker? I've heard khorns in a breadbox sized room along with cornwalls and heresy's. I'd take the Khorns. Of course I'll admit my brain being big speaker biased could have just shot down the cornwalls and heresy's. It is possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 i'm constantly on the move, next stop is London (where the bigger house might be).. England is notorious for their larger rooms.... [] If you are in Lebanon right now, it's probably going to be difficult to stop by someones house and hear anything. That said the Khorns are probably the most "room" efficient in that they are the least intrusive into your actual living space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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