Turntables. When Does Aesthetic Overcome Performance

[thebes]

I've alluded to this before but lately whenever I wander by Audiogon, I'm no longer memorized by all the candy, but appalled by the excess.

I don't have the big bucks to find out for sure, but I'm betting beyond a certain level, there is no possible improvement in the sound that could possibly be had. So what I'm left with is the conclusion that that a horrible convergence of marketing, greed, duplicity and complete and utter nonsense has rendered the highest-of-high-end audio an utter farce.

The greatest duplicity here is not the greed-overcomes-engineering aesthetic of the peddlers, but the willingness of the suckers to not only be gulled, but actively proselytize on behalf of the con artists.

Sure I expect a-goners to to pump up their wares a bit, needing some ducats to move out old to chase after their latest "must have". But why were they so brain dead to buy the Gizmo 4000 in the first place.

I truly believe that the worst examples of this are in the realms of tables. It appears that there is not one single honest turntable manufacturer in the entire world. To me an honest turntable manufacturer would have at most 3 models with zero accessories, with slightly better components matched to slightly higher pricepoints. Quite frankly I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt here, because if they were honest in their engineering they would make but one turntable that would do what is was supposedto: play records really, really well.

You can buy an amplifier but you really can't buy a high-end turntable, because they have an endless supply of upgrades. Once you've bought all the upgrades, the sounds so confused, you have to sell the damn thing and start all over again.

Let's face it beyond a certain lever all you are buying is looks, and I will admit some of these tables are works of art. Oh, and perceived cachet amongst the 6 other people in the world who can afford this stuff.

You are not buying better sound, It's flatly impossible. IMO, and of course, my IMO is better that most.

Confused about what I'm talking about?. Here's a pic of a table. Price $20k, but it comes with a the optional dust-cover. That's right. $20k and you still have to shell out for a dust cover which I could make myself for less than $30. But why should you have to. You can buy one of those cheapie $75 USB turntable and they come with a dust cover. But once you are a certified sucker, we will drill you right through the nose.

[LarryC]

I think I know whatcha mean. This is the Basis "Work of Art" turntable, which costs $150,000:

But that's all right; after all, the Goldman costs $300K. They make 5 per year. At least the Basis comes with a tonearm.

[artarama]

I hear ya Thebes, but personally I am glad they are doing it. The endless search for perfection is the motivation for many pursuits. The extreme price tag includes a lot of R&D expense for the very few models sold. Of course there is some "magic dust" in the marketing but I don't feel they are just selling art. I will probably never know but I am glad there is a market for this excess. Porridge for everyone gets kind of dull, even if you are the one who has to eat the porridge. Just MHO. (Heck I wish I had an ***!)

[JerolW]

I'm still enjoying my Gizmo 1000, but I concur.

jerol

[JerolW]

artarama,

It also puts the last generation of goodies on the market for semi-cheap,

jerol

[artarama]

artarama,

It also puts the last generation of goodies on the market for semi-cheap,

jerol

Indeed. And the third generation is a bargin if you don't mind slummin a little.

[JerolW]

I don't.

jerol

[oldtimer]

This one is no longer certified to drill for oil:

[Timmikid]

Hi, this table looks cool I think. I know I'm in audio heaven when it takes off! Yes expensive, but oh well... My records better be worth something, they are my pension... [:$]

[Groomlakearea51]

Sometimes you just gotta' wonder. Notice the classic brushed faceplate with nice knobs (nice knobs are always important); and the ultra high end artificial plastic, low profile tone arm. Now for $38..... it's certainly aesthetic and probably not "overcome" by performance!!!

The Jensen JTA-220 turntable has everything you need to listen to your records, including built-in speakers, three speeds, and support for long-play albums. An AM/FM radio tuner, headphone output, and powered external outputs give you more listening options in one, easy-to-use form.

[Islander]

I don't have the big bucks to find out for sure, but I'm betting beyond a certain level, there is no possible improvement in the sound that could possibly be had. ...

... I truly believe that the worst examples of this are in the realms of tables. It appears that there is not one single honest turntable manufacturer in the entire world. To me an honest turntable manufacturer would have at most 3 models with zero accessories, with slightly better components matched to slightly higher pricepoints. Quite frankly I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt here, because if they were honest in their engineering they would make but one turntable that would do what is was supposedto: play records really, really well.

I haven't heard any really high-end turntables either, but I don't think all the reviewers that rave about them are either drunk or on the take, or both. There must be some improvements in sound with the better decks, although the style definitely adds to the cost of many of them. Also, I'll admit that for some of the buyers, those decks are bought as status symbols as much as for their performance. In any case, without hearing the turntables with my own ears, I don't feel qualified to state whether or not they're worth the money.

In one write-up of a $65,000 turntable a few years back, the reviewer's very skeptical friend came over to see the turntable for himself, convinced it had to be a waste of money. As it happens, he was a recording engineer, so the reviewer put on an LP that the engineer himself had produced. The engineer couldn't believe his ears, and stated the sound was so clear that he could tell which brand of skins were on the drums. It didn't seem like a waste of money to him after actually hearing it.

Obviously, everyday turntables aren't capable of anything near that.

As for making at most three models, some manufacturers do just that. However, more pricepoints mean more potential buyers, some of whom just want something that has the same name on the label as the crazy-expensive unit, so they'll get the entry-level unit for now.

That's good business, not dishonesty. Don't you think lots of people buy entry-level Klipsch speakers after having been seduced by the sound of Klipschorns or La Scalas, sometimes even years in the past? Maybe they can't afford their dream speakers right now, but they've got some Klipsch in their room and that makes them happy.

If there were more Palladiums on display for people to hear, it would likely improve sales of the Reference line, because the buyers would know they've taken a step toward having that great sound in their homes. That's the concept of "aspirational" products, plus, as one other poster mentioned, the research and engineering that produces the top-of-the-line units often trickles down to the affordable models, so the high-rollers who can afford the pricy stuff indirectly finance the improvements in the lower lines of the manufacturer.

[thebes]

I'm still enjoying my Gizmo 1000, but I concur.

jerol

I don't know how you could stand to have that particular model in your house. It comes with no feet, no belt, no platter, no motor, and I do believe the cord to plug it in is optional. Dead quiet operation, though.

Time to trade up.

[thebes]

Blah, blah, blah, blah blah[]

Nonsense my good friend, R&D on turntables? Edison, Lake and Palmer did all the R&D at the turn of the century., the 20th Century .

Seriously, there's very little new under the sun in the realm of turntables, it's well understood engineering with only minor refinements here and there since the TT's hi-fi heyday. Scaling up for producing those monsters, with all their one-of-a-kind parts indeed is reflected in the cost, but to what point. A fatter markup, that's all.

I'm lucky to have heard vastly better turntable/cart/arm setups than I probably will ever own, and you betcha they sod better. But up to what point? I do not believe cost can and will always equal better sound and I really do think that on something as well understood engineering wise as turntables, beyond a certain point you are buying frills and not performance.

I do like your Klipsch analogy, though, and can understand that type of marketing. However, does it really apply to upgrade path that TT makers offer? I mean silver wire versus copper wire. Come on. Motor upgrades? You're trying to tell me that in this day and age you can't make a quiet turntable motor? Clamp upgrades? Belt upgrades? That's not product to price point, that's marketing crapola pure and simple.

Look at the video Larry was kind enough to post. All those mega-buck TT's and only two of them are actually revolving and not a one of them has a record playing. Probably not hooked up to speakers because nobody can afford the ultra-fancy-smancy RCA cables to run them to a preamp.

[oldtimer]

Linn personifies your philosophy thebes.

[Islander]

Blah, blah, blah, blah blah

Nonsense my good friend, R&D on turntables? Edison, Lake and Palmer did all the R&D at the turn of the century., the 20th Century .

Seriously, there's very little new under the sun in the realm of turntables, it's well understood engineering with only minor refinements here and there since the TT's hi-fi heyday. Scaling up for producing those monsters, with all their one-of-a-kind parts indeed is reflected in the cost, but to what point. A fatter markup, that's all.

I'm lucky to have heard vastly better turntable/cart/arm setups than I probably will ever own, and you betcha they sod better. But up to what point? I do not believe cost can and will always equal better sound and I really do think that on something as well understood engineering wise as turntables, beyond a certain point you are buying frills and not performance.

Thanks for not misquoting me. []

I agree that beyond a certain point, the price goes way up for miniscule gains in performance, but that applies in lots of areas of technology.

With turntables in particular, though, there do seem to be some manufacturers that have a carefully laid out sequence for you to give them more and more money in return for bigger and heavier pieces of plastic or aluminum to swap into your original purchase. I'm not likely to ever buy into one of those upgrade schemes, so I overlooked that aspect of that market.

Turntables are pretty simple mechanical devices, but some of those minor refinements over the last century must start to add up. For example, modern bearing design and materials, not to mention lubricants (whale oil is hard to find these days) have made some improvements in sound. There are also a number of aftermarket engineers at work, as in the various cottage industry bearings being produced for the Technics SL-12xx series in Australia and England.

Anyway, what are you really grumbling about? That someone who spends $50,000 on a turntable is not getting good value for his money? You can say the same thing about exotic sports cars and expensive cigars. High rollers don't care. Neither do I, because I'm not buying any of those things. Do you care?

When you're buying Veblen goods, the high price is an added feature, not a turn-off.

[oldtimer]

Your exotic sports car analogy does'nt hold true. If you buy a bugatti veyron you are getting the fastest production street car. Specs that can be quantified like 0 to 60 or to 100, or to 200 will be worth it to some. However 33.333 rpms can only be so steady with utility fed a/c. And so on with other important variables which may be debated which can be heard or not heard. At what multiple of the price of housing is discernable to the ear? Do rich people have better hearing? Are they rich because their hearing is better? I doubt it. Basic human talents such as hearing have little to do with todays economic man.

[Mallette]

Edison, Lake and Palmer did all the R&D at the turn of the century., the 20th Century

Dang. Got me there, Marty. Heckuva band, but I didn't think they broke out until the 70's...

On topic, Marty has pretty well said it all. In my case, I won't spend a dime for aesthetics unless it is found money. My VPI TT is the only major component in my system for which I paid retail. It was too much for the labor and materials in it, but it was also a lifetime investment and I could not find that there was significant gain in spending more, either new or used, sonically.

>"In one write-up of a $65,000 turntable a few years back, the reviewer's very skeptical friend came over to see the turntable for himself, convinced it had to be a waste of money. As it happens, he was a recording engineer, so the reviewer put on an LP that the engineer himself had produced. The engineer couldn't believe his ears, and stated the sound was so clear that he could tell which brand of skins were on the drums. It didn't seem like a waste of money to him after actually hearing it.

Obviously, everyday turntables aren't capable of anything near that."

Horse hockey, my friend. There is nothing in that little tale that would stand up in a court of law. Have you any way of knowing that the guy might have had the same experience with a Dual, VPI, or whatever on that same system? What was the "B" source involved? Oh...none.

I can tell you from experience that just because a person is an audio engineer, even a well known one, it is no guarantee they've been exposed to really audiophile level sound systems of the Klipsch 2 Channel Forum quality. The standards of the professional audio studio are completely different from our aesthetic and most of you would find the sound there very taxing.

Dave

[fini]

Confused about what I'm talking about?. Here's a pic of a table. Price $20k, but it comes with a the optional dust-cover. That's right. $20k and you still have to shell out for a dust cover which I could make myself for less than $30. But why should you have to. You can buy one of those cheapie $75 USB turntable and they come with a dust cover. But once you are a certified sucker, we will drill you right through the nose.

It's the Yankees of turntables. Oh yeah, a well-oiled, highly engineered machine, probably squeezing out the last of the fi in one's hifi. But it's boring, kinda ugly, and it's got no soul, brother.

[] (placed here so Marty knows I still like him. Hate his bloody Yankmees, though)

[Islander]

Your exotic sports car analogy does'nt hold true. If you buy a bugatti veyron you are getting the fastest production street car.

I'm a Veyron fan, too, but the roughly $60k a year it costs in wheels and tires (fresh tires every few thousand kilometres, new wheels every third tire change) make it a bit less desirable to me, even in my lottery-winning fantasies where I could afford to spend over $1M on a second or third car.

The Veyron, though, could be called an "ultra-exotic", in a class with very few other cars. If we stick to "regular" exotics, like Ferraris and Lamborghinis, it's hard to justify spending triple the price of a ZR-1 Corvette to go slightly faster, if at all. The Italian cars, or Aston Martins or the like, impress by their names alone, but that's all the extra money buys you.

[oldtimer]

Well westie, There is nothing quite like the handling of even a lowly alfa romeo. Add a ferrari engine plus a hand sewn leather interior and you have a ferrari. The experience is different, and worth paying for. Put the most expensive turntable in your room, and tell me the experience is that much greater. A car is an interactive machine on every level, while a turntable is an interactive experience pretty much on one level. It either sounds good or it doesn't.