Khorn placement

[tk49]

I'm set to get a pair of beautiful oak khorns and looking for advice on placement. Basement room is carpeted with dimensions of 14' 6''X27' and 8' ceiling. My current la scala set-up is along the long wall, speakers are toed in and spaced at 14' to center of speakers and my seating is against the opposite wall, putting me about 11' away from the front of the la scalas. Seems to me putting the Khorns in the corner of the 27' wall will leave me sitting too close and the khorns too far apart. I'm thinking they will sound better on the shorter 14' 6" wall, which has a pair of 5' French doors off center, leaving a 3' wall section on one side and 6' on the other side of the doors. Other than that they are good corners for a tight fit. I know experimentation is in order, looking to hear from those who have already dealt with this. One other thing to consider is the Khorns are modded with the closed/false backs.

Tom

[garyrc]

I'm set to get a pair of beautiful oak khorns and looking for advice on placement. Basement room is carpeted with dimensions of 14' 6''X27' and 8' ceiling. My current la scala set-up is along the long wall, speakers are toed in and spaced at 14' to center of speakers and my seating is against the opposite wall, putting me about 11' away from the front of the la scalas. Seems to me putting the Khorns in the corner of the 27' wall will leave me sitting too close and the khorns too far apart. I'm thinking they will sound better on the shorter 14' 6" wall, which has a pair of 5' French doors off center, leaving a 3' wall section on one side and 6' on the other side of the doors. Other than that they are good corners for a tight fit. I know experimentation is in order, looking to hear from those who have already dealt with this. One other thing to consider is the Khorns are modded with the closed/false backs.

Tom

Try them on the long wall first. Use one of your La Scalas as a center channel. If that works, it could sound awesome! It would be tragic to pass up the whole wall coming alive, as the old High Fidelity magazine review (1963) of Khorns & Cornwall center for "Wide Stage Stereo" put it. It may well be O.K. when the recordists have placed soloists dead center using their board (i.e., using a pan pot). When they don't do that, hope the soloist stands very still. If the long wall corners don't work, then articicial corners with the Khorns placed closer together might work. I had to go to the short wall. Singers and violinists, etc, that swayed back and forth or twisted their bodies while recording, without the pan pot ploy, drove me nuts, even with a Belle in the center.

Someone on the forum has two LaScalas in the center, spaced somewhat apart. I hope he writes in.

[PrestonTom]

I agree with the above. In terms of angle, my set up was about the same and in addition the room was asymetric.

The sound stage was nice and wide, however the center image was a bit "fragile". I used a summed center channel to help things (anchor the center and make it more stable). There are a number of threads on this topic. At first I used a Heresy and then I switched to a Cornwall. The trick is to keep the level of the center a few-to-several dB less than the mains (that is also why you can get away with a "lesser" speaker).

The other trick is to move one of the speakers inward and use a false corner (or in this case, a false half-corner). That also works. Again, search the many, many threads on this topic.

Good luck,

-Tom

[tk49]

Thanks for the input, the wide spread of the long wall is my major concern and the fact I will be relatively close. I have looked at the center channel option, and read a few of the threads. My understanding is and additional amp and then some way to properly mix the center channel. I will need to revisit the threads. I will play with the false wall approach as well.

Tom

[Rudy81]

I previously owned a set of Khorns and had them slightly toed-in using false corners. I had to use false corners due to windows too close to the room corners.

I had a chance to listen to the Anniversary Khorns in Hope during the last Pilgrimage. I would highly recommend you seriously consider closing in the backs. This will provide the ability to place the Khorns where ever you want and give you some really nice bass performance.

There are several ideas on the forum of folks who have sealed the backs. I know it is a tough idea to start drilling into a set of Khorns, but I now believe it is the way to to.

Best of luck.

[tk49]

I would highly recommend you seriously consider closing in the backs.

This pair has the backs closed, I did the mod for a friend a couple of years ago, he's down sizing and I'm the lucky new owner. I'm hoping that the closed backs would allow me to shorten the spread. I'll start on the long wall and go from there, lots of options to consider.

[davis419b]

I have had khorns for 3 years now and have learned a few things along the way. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that alot of things that I read in the begiining about placement did not work for me in my application. My room is basicly the same as yours 13'-9'' X 22' and I have mine on the short wall. For the first year they never imaged at all much less having a sound stage. Everything I read said you needed a big room and I think the reason is so they will image properly when shoved back into the corners. At the beginning of the second year I had a guy come over to buy a preamp and he brought his friend who is a local tube amp builder with him. He sat down to listen to my system and right off the bat he ask me if I would be willing to toe them out and see what it would sound like. As he listened I adjusted the toe until he said stop and went and sat down for a listen. I could not believe what I heard, they were imaging for the first time. I have 4 khorns in that room that I immediately put backs on all of them and now the toe is the same on all of them. At the time I was using SS gear and now I have tube gear and the sounstage and imaging is out of this world. I will in no way say that sealing them snuggly in the corner is wrong but it just didnt work in my small room. I have a fireplace between mine and maybe that had something to do with the problem. Here is a pic of them on the short wall.

[Chris A]

As he listened I adjusted the toe until he said stop and went and sat down for a listen. I could not believe what I heard, they were imaging for the first time.

 

I've done the same thing with the Jubs, and I've also got mine on either side of a fireplace (see profile pic). I've found that the reflections from the top-horn direct path (K-402/TAD-4002) off of:

 

1) the fireplace masonry, and

2) the far corner/Jub

 

...are the issues.

 

I took care of issue #1 by moving the Jubs forward a bit and placing tapped horn subs behind them. I also moved them toward the center of the mantle by about 6" each, which also improved the imaging by a significant margin, too. Issue #2 is about to be addressed by moving the listening position back very slightly and aiming the Jubs downrange a bit more.

 

I'm really surprised that this information about corner horn placement isn't widely disseminated around this forum, because it is a dramatic change and it costs very little if anything to accomplish.

 

Chris

Edited November 22, 2014 by Chris A

[Chris A]

Basement room is carpeted with dimensions of 14'6'' X 27' X 8' ceiling.

I would at least try out the short wall without a center channel for two-channel operation. I'd also make sure that the false corners allow you to pull the Khorns out of the corners very slightly--about 6-8 inches from the front wall and side walls--and aim them directly at your listening position or very slightly "uprange (pointed more at each other). Listen for imaging performance.

 

Chris

Edited November 22, 2014 by Chris A

[psg]

I think that the corners of the long wall puts the sweet spot (half that wall length from the front wall) pretty close to the back wall, but you never know, it might work. 27 feet is also a long distance, but mine are around 21 or 22 so that still might work. Costs nothing to try.

In my previous house, I hade a TV/play room that measured 30x11 or so. I placed them 18 feet apart on the long wall, using a solid 1.5-inch thick table top as a false wall for the one that didn't have a proper corner, and I sat against the back wall. They sounded fantastic; imaging was insanely good. The backs of yours of sealed but they would still benefit from a 4-foot false wall to complete the horn. That would allow you to try various separations. The sweet spot for me is looking down the throat of the horns, so seated from the front wall at half the length of the long wall (or outside edge to edge of the Khorns using false walls and no toe-out).

[tk49]

Peter, this is all good info, I would rather use the long wall and was hoping with the closed backs I could do this. The center channel is very inviting, but that may have to wait based on finances. The sale of my La Scalas was going to subsidize the Khorns. The 27' spread just seems too wide to run with out a center channel, but won't know until I try. I really appericiate all the input, all of this comes down to what one like in personal sound, room accoustic playing a big role. I had a pair of Cornwall's, along with my La Scala's, the Cornwall's were great but I perferred the La Scala sound, sold the Cornwall's to a friend, went to listen to his placement, he loved it I thought it was a disappointment, bottom line personal taste. Looking forward to trying all of it.

[psg]

Ok. I hope you never plan on using this for HT or you'll regret selling the La Scala ! []

If you have the La Scala now and don't have the KHorns yet, you can experiement with the La Scala toed-in at 45 degrees and get very similar imaging results as KHorns. People talk about a dead center with widely-space KHorns. This might be true outside of the sweet spot, but as you know with La Scala, imaging on Khorns (even 22 feet apart like mine) is stunning. Vocals come from dead in front and strings are plucked in front of you.

[tromprof]

My main listening room is approximately 15x20. When I first got my K-horns I had to place them on the short wall. It wasn't until 6 months later and I was able to redo the room that I moved them to the longer wall. They certainly sound better on the long wall, but if you can place your sitting position so the horns are aiming at you they should sound fine on the shorter one. Over 14ft apart is a good distance, very similar to my short wall and I was just blown away by how good they sounded when I first got them.

[RockOn4Klipsch]

hey TK what are you going to do with your trachorns?

[WMcD]

I here agree with Cask, with some explanation.

The first line of discussion we usually see is where to point the mid and tweeter, which of course are usually part of the speaker box. We read that the aiming point (cross fire) for main on-axis lobe of the pair should be to a point: 1) at the listener; 2) in front of the listener; or 3) behind the listener. People report good results for imaging in their rooms in the terms of those aimings.

I think, though, that the real issue is where a given set up and room works to avoid early reflections. Therefore it is more a matter of where the units are aimed away from -- specifically the nearby walls -- rather than where they are aimed towards.

WMcD

[tk49]

RockOn, since the tophats are the same my plan was try them in the Khorns. Dave said they should work fine. Email me if you want to visit.

WMcD, if I'm following you, your concern is the sound hitting the opposite wall before the listener. My first concern was the listener distance to speaker relative to the speaker spread but as I do the geometry the 45 off the long wall should put the line of fire just behind the listening position. Right now my La Scala's are at 14' spread and toed-in to intersect just in front of the listener, the imaging is great with a wide sound stage. Guess I will find out when I get them moved in.

t

[RockOn4Klipsch]

i really should get there for a peek. my keyboard is broke.kids soda laptops are ot a good math

[tk49]

i really should get there for a peek.

Come on down.

[consistent]

Hi

I have my Khorns on the smaller wall also but I have built a couple of Helmholtz resonators (tubes filled with foam one taller than the other) and stuck smack bang in the middle of my speakers (12' wall) out about 7' from the rear wall that the speakers sit snug into. All I can say is try it...you will think the artist is in the room right in front of you...beyond anything I have ever experienced! These reonators 'balance' out resonances (at least in my room) so that you see more of the detail. I have also major corner traps and wall hangimgs but I take these tubes away and I lose deifinition of the image, Check the links in Google...it's not magic but science.

Cheers

[davis419b]

Hi

I have my Khorns on the smaller wall also but I have built a couple of Helmholtz resonators (tubes filled with foam one taller than the other) and stuck smack bang in the middle of my speakers (12' wall) out about 7' from the rear wall that the speakers sit snug into. All I can say is try it...you will think the artist is in the room right in front of you...beyond anything I have ever experienced! These reonators 'balance' out resonances (at least in my room) so that you see more of the detail. I have also major corner traps and wall hangimgs but I take these tubes away and I lose deifinition of the image, Check the links in Google...it's not magic but science.

Cheers

Let me be the first to say,