Guest " " Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 "I suspect only certain components are subject to deterioration ". yes, it;s cheaper to replace the caps, than to buy a tester and test the caps, replacing ones that test bad. A lot of folks are replacing caps and are being wow'd by the new sound....in many cases, a new sound that would have been obtained by just removing and reconnecting all the wires. I have found bad caps (have a cap tester), but most caps I test still test fine . I haven't tested many....maybe 3 or 4 dozen sets of crossovers. Using 1 100uf cap vs 2 50uf caps in parallel sounds different to some folks, but measures the same on a cap tester. So what. Well maybe they are being wow'ed by lower ESR's. That would suggest there would be more of a wow factor if they replaced their caps, with a parallel cap bank. replace a 12uf cap, with 10 1.2uf caps in parallel. You would have 1/10th the ESR of a single cap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwilson55 Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 I have used a kit from Crites a couple times. I was pleased with the results and this is as cheap as it gets. I've had my Khorns for a little over a month. I went to the website to get a kit for these, only to find a suggestion to replace this one (AK-2) and not to upgrade. Now the fun starts. I asked for opinions on a couple of different options. As others have said, there are a lot of opinions. I picked up a pair of used A/4500 crossovers and CT-125 tweeters at a good price. I don't have them installed yet, so I can't offer yet another opinion. I can tell you, there are some very high priced options when you start looking at upgrades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edroom Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 I think I know why so many people say that Khorns need Tubes. I recapped my AA crossovers with a crites Kit and thought they became overly harsh with the SS equipment I was using. My "high end roll off" was in the old caps, now I am experimenting with different Amps to get the sound I like again. I am not sure why but I have no imaging any longer. I still haven't found a combo I like. I snipped out the old caps and put in the Kit. I wish I had replaced the whole crossover so if I didnt like it I could have easily switched it back. I am thinking about trying another xover network but I am going to try a few more Amplifier sources first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 I think I know why so many people say that Khorns need Tubes. I recapped my AA crossovers with a crites Kit and thought they became overly harsh with the SS equipment I was using. common report. The old PIO tin can caps are slower responding than the newer types....this has a smoothing effect. One of the major characteristics associated with older TYPE AA networks. You can recap with new PIO caps, but they are expensive. I'm wondering if battery biasing them with make them less harsh. If you would like to be a beta tester I would like to send you some to evaluate for me. If you like the sound, I'll modify yours for free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 5, 2011 Author Share Posted March 5, 2011 I recapped my AA crossovers with a crites Kit and thought they became overly harsh with the SS equipment I was using. Well, Fritz may be on to something, but you may also have just discovered what I did some years ago. Ever since I began exclusively using Klipsch Heritage and Fraziers in my systems I noticed the same thing. No matter how pricey, the SS amps just sounded too clinical. I run only class d and tube amps now. I know the majority don't buy this, but I felt something was missing ever since I purchased a fairly high end Lux back in the 70's to replace my Dynaco SCA-35 and never really understood it until I had Frank Van Alstine rebuild my ST-70 and I purchased on of his super PAS-4 preamps. Then I got a class D amp and found that it was a bit less warm than tubes, but not so clinical (and I'll not say "harsh" to avoid conflict with the SS lovers) as SS. Try some tubes or a class d and see what happens. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 I went from an AA network I had used for about 25 years to an AK4 upgrade kit. The AK-4 sounds "nice," as one poster said, and usually sounds more gentle and pretty than the AA The AA sometimes gave offence, but seemed usually to have a welcome "zingier" sound -- more high overtones (?) The AK-4 sometimes sounds too nice... I somtimes turn up the treble control 2 to 4 dB to punch up the high overtones .... we changed networks over night with the K-horns in the same room, so I doubt if my ears changed in 24 hours. My guess is that most people would prefer the AK4. It's like in the old days when Klipsch was marketing moving coil phono cartridges -- some people prefered the model with more zing, and others liked the one with less. The former might like the AA, and the latter the AK4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 The old PIO tin can caps are slower responding than the newer types....this has a smoothing effect. I have to disagree here. What a capacitor does is exactly this. Combined with a resistor, they smooth out the signal with a time response. If they do it slower, then the value of the capacitance has changed. So one type of cap with the same value as another type of cap can't be slower or faster than the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blvdre Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 The old PIO tin can caps are slower responding than the newer types....this has a smoothing effect. I have to disagree here. What a capacitor does is exactly this. Combined with a resistor, they smooth out the signal with a time response. If they do it slower, then the value of the capacitance has changed. So one type of cap with the same value as another type of cap can't be slower or faster than the other. If I had to guess, I'd say that the PIO caps have a higher ESR compared to polys, and attenuate the mids and highs more so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyDover Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Garyrc, Thanks for sharing your take on the AA and AK-4. I was curious how the two compared and that answers some curiosity I had! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 7, 2011 Author Share Posted March 7, 2011 Well, this has been an extremely informational and useful thread. I've rec'd a fascinating offer upon which I will report in due time. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 A lot of folks would take great interest in reading about capacitor properties and the different measurable properties capacitors have beside capacitance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 and this one. A property or properties, besides capacitance is at work here. The trace signal is not the same for each capacitor topology. I might like metal film, you might like paper and oil, someone else might like polypropylene film. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 7, 2011 Author Share Posted March 7, 2011 I might like metal film, you might like paper and oil, someone else might like polypropylene film. I like BACH!!![] Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 if you get nothing else out of these photos, understand this. The best signal trace was obtained using paper and oil with a polycarbonate by pass cap. So everyone who has been yanking out their good test pass paper and oil cap, you might want to put them back in, and add a polycarbonate bypass cap. Of course, if the paper and oil capacitor test fails, replace it with a good paper and oil capacitor. But, do not assume that the latest and greatest parts express cap is the best cap with outunderstanding all the properties of a capacitor besides capacitance. There was a good thread about capacitors 3 years ago. do a search for bypass capacitor by DJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blvdre Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Good info SF. Those pics remind me of the old Hutron Tracker. That was a handy tool for troubleshooting caps and diodes in circuit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Got an email from Bob to inquire if I knew that Klipsch used film and oil motor run caps at the end of their wet capacitor journey. Which I knew, but it's a point worth clarifying. During the very early part of the wet capacitor journey their caps were paper in oil. During the middle part, film and oil. They later switched to dry motor run capacitors (the black square platstic blocks), and eventually used traditional elecronic's grade capacitors as well as audio grade marketed film. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyDover Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Very interesting! I've never seen pictures comparing these differences. I just purchased Metallized Polypropylene Capacitors for my HT build. The speaker technician that has been working with me, and building my speaker boxes for me, recommended that the Metallized Polypropylene Capacitors were the way to go for the detailed sound quality I am looking for. Hope I won't be disappointed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundbound Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 What type can cap did Bob Crites put in his crossovers when he use to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 What type can cap did Bob Crites put in his crossovers when he use to? And.... What type of caps are used in the AK4? What type do Al K and others use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyDover Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 If I remember right, I thought I read some where that the oil caps were made by GE but they stopped making them. My Super Cornwall's have Bob's crossover that use the Sonicaps that are white in color, my AK-4 have many yellow capacitors from medium to large, and the Solen Metallized Polypropylene Capacitors I just purchased are black in color but all of them look the same on the outside but I don't know if they are the same on the inside! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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