My jubilee setup

[PrestonTom]

"...

Nah, not what I read.

I also love the Jub and Jub clone threads. I just stepped in to call a spade a "spade". Too many non "engineered" references made about the OP's components and the final comparison of his "clones" directed towards mixed and matched vehicles in a once again, underhanded tone. Some of you guys may have read it as a hand on the shoulder approach, but indeed it sounded like a friendly approach of kicking someones dog to me. Someone ALWAYS steps in to bust someones chops over a set of clones, usually regardless of the situation. I say let a man bask in his enjoyment for his newly aquired speakers. No reason to list nit picks of "non engineered" Klipsch components that they obviously know didnt come from Klipsch.

..."

I guess that I view a speaker cabinet as a system that has been designed and not simply pieced together. Much of the design strategy was outlined in the JAES article by Delgado and Klipsch (JAES, 2000). We are fortunate since the lead author is still active and ready to answer question about the Jubilee and how it is best used in home audio.

I am willing to assume that the clone builder made a solid cabinet and got the bass bin geometry (mostly, if not completely) right.

What about the rest of the design? That would include the HF horn and driver, the crossover (its cutoff & steepness), any EQ required, the issue of time alignment, the preferred geometry of the horn (especially as it relates to dispersion), etc. All these things go into the system's design. The problem with a number of these alternative designs (and not just Jubilees, but also crossovers and horns etc) is the design strategy is either loose, not clear or it is suspect.

In the past, Roy Delgado has discussed some of the design strategies that went into the Jubilee and what was intended for the "home version". Although I can't (and should not) speak for him, I have been following his comments carefully. What I have seen in this build and others are some decisions that are inconsistent or contrary to what was originally intended. Folks have been kind enough to point out some areas of concern. In turn, others have viewed those comments as being hostile.

Now perhaps we DIYers could do a better job than the engineered design, but I doubt it.

That said, I think Bill's comments about engineered vs DIY (my words not his) are worth considering. I am sure the OP is enjoying his new system and I give him credit for going out and assembling these pieces. It probably sounds great, but is it as good as an "engineered system"? Well, the jury is still out on that one.

[bracurrie]

That said, I think Bill's comments about engineered vs DIY (my words not his) are worth considering. I am sure the OP is enjoying his new system and I give him credit for going out and assembling these pieces. It probably sounds great, but is it as good as an "engineered system"? Well, the jury is still out on that one

Thanks for your input.

I would agree on the engineered system. However, what limitations did the designer have to adapt to? Haven't materials and technology in drivers moved ahead since the bass driver and horn drivers were finalized? Probably could find out, but sometimes its good to not know things when playing with things. After all if the end result is very good, do you have to look for better? My damn ears are getting worse every day so when I get to a threshold of dynamic range and imaging that lets me hear whats there, I will stop there and be very happy. I hope.

My priorities are as follows:

1 - intergrating a sub to make up for jub limitations trying for as much of that last 10 to 20hz as practical. (May not be practical)

2 - setting crossover to 500hz w/ 6d slope from woofer and 12db slope to tweeter per Bob Crites' s tests that show a good dip there in the bass cabs.

3 - lowering the tweeter horns and bringing them even with the front.

4 - adjusting tweeter delay to match bass cab.

5 - Open a cold one and enjoy (test) This could be #1,2,3, or 4 depending on how thirsty I am.

Its all good.

Brad

[JoeM38]

What about the rest of the design? That would include the HF horn and driver, the crossover (its cutoff & steepness), any EQ required, the issue of time alignment, the preferred geometry of the horn (especially as it relates to dispersion), etc. All these things go into the system's design. The problem with a number of these alternative designs (and not just Jubilees, but also crossovers and horns etc) is the design strategy is either loose, not clear or it is suspect

Tom in regards to alternative designs

How many people have thrown out the "enginered design" of the klipschorn? Can DIYers do better(a lot of people must think so)

How many people here have changed the tweeters horns mid drivers and put different crossovers in the khorn? defeating the "engineered design"?

I think the clone jube bass bin has a lot of potential for the DIYer, but does everybody NEED to spend thousands of dollars on the INTENDED top horns drivers eq electroniccrossover and amplification to have a good sounding system?

[bracurrie]

I think the clone jube bass bin has a lot of potential for the DIYer, but does everybody NEED to spend thousands of dollars on the INTENDED top horns drivers eq electroniccrossover and amplification to have a good sounding system?

Well I hope not as I do not want to spend that kind of money. The DBX Driverack was $500 and it replaces the $300 I had in the passive crossovers. But the ability to tweak and tune is irresistable. I am working on delay now. but so far the results are stunning. Now if I had a better room........

All the best.

Brad

[bracurrie]

I am anal so I decided to do more research on the different Jube clones and noticed that most if not all of them were not CnC'd

What is CnC'd?

Thanks

Brad

[Chris A]

What is CnC'd?

Computer numerical control (CNC)

[]

[PrestonTom]

What about the rest of the design? That would include the HF horn and driver, the crossover (its cutoff & steepness), any EQ required, the issue of time alignment, the preferred geometry of the horn (especially as it relates to dispersion), etc. All these things go into the system's design. The problem with a number of these alternative designs (and not just Jubilees, but also crossovers and horns etc) is the design strategy is either loose, not clear or it is suspect

Tom in regards to alternative designs

How many people have thrown out the "enginered design" of the klipschorn? Can DIYers do better(a lot of people must think so)

How many people here have changed the tweeters horns mid drivers and put different crossovers in the khorn? defeating the "engineered design"?

I think the clone jube bass bin has a lot of potential for the DIYer, but does everybody NEED to spend thousands of dollars on the INTENDED top horns drivers eq electroniccrossover and amplification to have a good sounding system?

Joe, with all due respect I think you are simply being argumentative.

The original Klipschorn was designed decades ago. Decades ago engineers did not know a great deal about designing for constant dispersion horns etc or how to easily implement signal delays, or newer ideas on crossover topologies. So yes there has been improvements in loudspeaker design.

No one is arguing that you must use a K-402 horn, but you might want to investigate the functional properties of a K-402 and then look for other horns within your price range that have comparable design features (especially concerning dispersion). The issue is not necessarily about Klipsch parts, rather it is about trying to mimic the design goals of an engineered system. If you can then upgrade the parts also, then so much the better.

BTW, many of the "upgrades" I hear about on this forum are rather suspect. There are folks using mid-horns that are crossed way too low and producing a good amount of distortion. There are others using mid horns crossed too high and leaving a hole in the freq response of the system. Many times these problems could be solved by employing some simple measurements or at the very least looking at the manufacturers data sheet. So why do you think that all "upgrades" are a good idea?

[Islander]

It appears that the OP was sold a pair of Jubilee bass bin clones, then advised against using the K402 horns that are an important part of the Jubilee design in favour of some horns built by a third party.

He also seems to be on his own as regards crossover settings. Anyone who has seen the factory settings can tell you it's not a simple curve, but very detailed, in order to provide a smooth response and proper integration of the bass horns and treble horns.

Forum members who own or are familiar with the Jubilee have given helpful suggestions, without any intentions of "kicking a man's dog". There's no one-upmanship happening, just some folks who want to help a new member get the best from his speakers.

Nothing is gained by looking for trouble where there is none.

[bracurrie]

It appears that the OP was sold a pair of Jubilee bass bin clones, then advised against using the K402 horns that are an important part of the Jubilee design in favour of some horns built by a third party.

I admit to ignorance. Unaware that Jubilees were available from Klipsch. However the fun of learning about crossover design, slopes, EQ and delay are priceless. Because the outcome was earned through effort its automatically more pleasing.

He also seems to be on his own as regards crossover settings. Anyone who has seen the factory settings can tell you it's not a simple curve, but very detailed, in order to provide a smooth response and proper integration of the bass horns and treble horns.

Crossover settings have been suggested by many, but its ironic that what Bob Crites told me in the beginning has proven true. 500hz with 6db slope on the low end and 12db slope on the high pass seem to work very well. My Driverack auto EQ is balanced at the crossover point. Between 125 and 250hz EQ is -6db but all the other adjustments are +-3db or less.

Forum members who own or are familiar with the Jubilee have given helpful suggestions, without any intentions of "kicking a man's dog". There's no one-upmanship happening, just some folks who want to help a new member get the best from his speakers.

Nothing was taken personally and I didn't get my fellings hurt much.[:@] But hey I would rather risk insult to get honest feedback. Thanks everyone!

Brad Currie

[Blvdre]

The original Klipschorn was designed decades ago. Decades ago engineers did not know a great deal about designing for constant dispersion horns etc or how to easily implement signal delays, or newer ideas on crossover topologies. So yes there has been improvements in loudspeaker design.

No one is arguing that you must use a K-402 horn, but you might want to investigate the functional properties of a K-402 and then look for other horns within your price range that have comparable design features (especially concerning dispersion). The issue is not necessarily about Klipsch parts, rather it is about trying to mimic the design goals of an engineered system. If you can then upgrade the parts also, then so much the better.

BTW, many of the "upgrades" I hear about on this forum are rather suspect. There are folks using mid-horns that are crossed way too low and producing a good amount of distortion. There are others using mid horns crossed too high and leaving a hole in the freq response of the system. Many times these problems could be solved by employing some simple measurements or at the very least looking at the manufacturers data sheet. So why do you think that all "upgrades" are a good idea?

Spot on Tom. I'm no designer, I don't have experience in taking and interpreting measurements, nor am I any good at designing filter networks. What I do know is after reading a bit here and there about basic design concepts, I have a clearer idea as to what is required for a proper design. Center to center spacing, baffle step, vertical nulls, setting the forward lobe, even power response, proper filter design, etc. It's certainly not as simple as some are lead to believe. Now I wince a bit when someone says, "So I paired so and so together and used this existing crossover design, and this custom box". Not that the result necessarily sounds bad, but it certainly isn't optimized. I think people are underestimating the concept of engineeering a design. With just a bit of research, you can begin to understand what that really entails.

[bracurrie]

Who What Where is Tony Ham? Did Amy say he could build and sell them

I missed the part about the infomercial

I wasn't aware that you needed to have permission to build and sell Jub clones. Seems I heard the design is not protected. I heard the bean counters and business types in control at the time PKW passed away didn't let the Jubilee see production and the design went into the public domain.

Please if anyone knows different I would like to know.

What infomercial?

[bhendrix]

Hi, Brad

I sent you a PM.

[Guest David H]

What infomercial?

Infomercial is a term that gets thrown out anytime a builder, or designer shows pictures of, shows specs, or talks about anything they are working on. Whether that item is for sale or just a project doesn't seem to matter.

Try not to worry to much about this threads downward spiral, this happens nearly every time a Klipsch-clone is built, and or when discussing a Jubilee. The fact that you are discussing a Jubilee-Clone with a Tractrix horn is the ultimate sacrilege in the eyes of many forum members.

I hope you are enjoying your speakers, sorry you had to endure the forum drama.

Dave

[bracurrie]

I believe he is a cabinet maker / wood worker in Oklahoma. He had the jube clone bass bins on ebay last year. He doesn't build for Klipsch, so Amy's answer is uncircumstantial. She has probably never heard of him. Infomercial=Selling tactics?

I

brought up Tony Ham in my initial post of this thread as a point of reference.

I bought a pair that someone reneged on after giving him a deposit. He needed

the money so I bought the bass cabs as is and the odd pair of wooden horns. I

feel good about having enough faith in a man's word that it could be the

makings of a good speaker system, but he warned me that it would take some doing

to get them right as he had no experience with Bob Crites drivers. He had used

some Pioneer drivers that are no longer available.

I picked this forum to play in as I felt there was a polite tone

to most of the comments and this thread has introduced me to several good

people I hope to stay in touch with.

Don't disparage Tony as he was not selling his wares.

Be well.

Brad

[Islander]

I picked this forum to play in as I felt there was a polite tone to most of the comments and this thread has introduced me to several good people I hope to stay in touch with.

Brad, it's good to hear that you didn't take offence at some of the comments. I don't believe any offence was intended, although it was perceived that way by one or two posters. Most of the members here are respectful of others' opinions, which makes it fairly civil most of the time.

As for an earlier comment about the Jubilee design not being protected, there was a mention on the forum some time ago that it was not patented to avoid the requirement to publish its precise dimensions. That would make it harder to build unlicensed copies. Someone correct me if I got that wrong.

The fact is, the Jubilee is a current production model for pro cinema use and is on the Klipsch website at:
http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/kpt-jubilee-535-overview/

The 3-way cinema version is intended for high-volume use in large theatres. The 2-way home version is slightly more compact and more than loud enough for home use. It's a limited-production design made in response to requests from a few serious Klipsch enthusiasts. Neither model has ever been "in the public domain".

In any case, welcome to the forum. We're all here in search of better sound. Not "ultimate sound", of course. The "ultimate sound" would mean a live band in your home, and we know where that would go. After they ate all your food and drank all your beer, they'd run off with your daughters.

[dtel]

It is in production, for what it's worth.

http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/kpt-jubilee-535-overview/

[JoeM38]

Joe, with all due respect I think you are simply being argumentative

Tom,

It seams to me that when people are dealing with speakers projects anything goes and everybody is very helpful,but when it comes to the jubilee or clones more specificly there seams to be a only way mentality about them. I think there is justicacation to any questions I have asked. Being argumentative to the one way mind set? probably[] being argumentative to get something started or for the fact of arguing? I don't think I am. I don't post that much but I do read a lot and there seams to be some bad blood so to speak about the jube clones. I read things that can not be done rather than how somebody can make something good from these bass bins. I have read many times jube bins would be a DIYers dream.

So why do you think that all "upgrades" are a good idea?

I don't. My Klipschorns are all original execept a cap replacement and they are 37 years old. All my klipsch are still factory and my altecs are too.

I was just trying to make a point about the "engineered system' with the Klipschorn that is still produced today that people are modding.

Is challenging you're point of view argumentative?

I don't think i have cut anybody down or beat anybody up. I have just asked questions and given my opinions. Isn't that what the forum is about?

[Coytee]

It seams to me that when people are dealing with speakers projects anything goes and everybody is very helpful,but when it comes to the jubilee or clones more specificly there seams to be a only way mentality about them

Perhaps I'm splitting hairs but... my gut feeling is, there are no issues with people who are making their own clones. The angst seems to raise itself more often when someone is building them 'commercially' for sale rather than their own personal use. My memory suggests that those who are cutting their own sawdust for their own use get enthusiastic help. I've even seen Roy himself offer his help to someone making a pair for personal use.

Clearly these are being built for resale and not personal use. I think it's been stated that he's built/sold about 10 pair?

So now you have a commercial operation, however small it may be.... offering out something that doesn't have spec'ed drivers and the buyer has to fend for themself on how they're going to manage the signal (active/passive, what paramaters to use...)

Frankly, if I were a casual reader considering a purchase like this, I will admit that the lure of saving several thousand dollars would be a strong attraction to me....however.... there would also be an equally strong attraction to knowing that I have the 'real deal' (and by that, I mean drivers designed for the bass bin and crossover paramaters that fit them as designed in their anechoic chamber). There is some merit to being able to "plug & play" and start enjoying things rather than acquire and spend the next 3 months figuring out the shortcomings and how to get past them.

Right now it seems Brad has a mismash of parts that he's got to work on to get all the bugs out. If he chose to build these in his basement, he would know that going in (he might have known it anyway). Had he bought an original, he could/would be enjoying them right now instead of figuring out where to put his top horn and what slopes to use in his crossver....

Personally, I almost think he got a raw deal since the builder of them evidently can't/won't provide the full technical support to get them up & running.

[PrestonTom]

Coytee: well said!

JoeM38: we see things differently. Let's just leave it at that.

[bracurrie]

Well
said, but let me respectfully rebut.

Perhaps I'm splitting hairs but...
my gut feeling is, there are no issues with people who are making their own clones. The angst seems to raise
itself more often when someone is building them 'commercially' for sale rather
than their own personal use. My memory suggests that those who are cutting
their own sawdust for their own use get enthusiastic help. I've even seen Roy
himself offer his help to someone making a pair for personal use.

At
the time I was ignorant to the reality Jubilees were being made by Klipsch.

So now you have a commercial operation,
however small it may be.... offering out something that doesn't have spec'ed
drivers and the buyer has to fend for themself on how they're going to manage
the signal (active/passive, what paramaters to use...)

Its a free
country and no crime to build Jub clones for sale. The builder has given me all
the help he is capable of and I understood what I was getting into.

Frankly, if I were a casual reader
considering a purchase like this, I will admit that the lure of saving several
thousand dollars would be a strong attraction to me..

I saved more than several thousand dollars and am still willing to
accept the trade-off to the real thing.

attraction to knowing that I have
the 'real deal' (and by that, I mean drivers designed for the bass bin and
crossover paramaters that fit them as designed in their anechoic chamber).

Several knowledgeable friends of PKW have heard these bass bins
and without the benefit of test results declared the sound identical.

The
design choices Klipsch makes are probably not perfect as they are influenced by
less pure constraints. Their drivers do not necessarily reflect the
advancements made since they were finalized. Have there been independent tests
to know. This however is pure speculation that should be taken as a
rationalization for me that I am comfortable with.

There is some merit to being able
to "plug & play" and start enjoying things rather than acquire
and spend the next 3 months figuring out the shortcomings and how to get past
them.

Yes indeed, but at what price?

Right now it seems Brad has a
mismash of parts that he's got to work on to get all the bugs out.

Yes, but I would almost pay more to have this much fun.

Personally, I almost think he got a
raw deal since the builder of them evidently can't/won't provide the full
technical support to get them up & running.

Let me assure you I got nowhere near a raw deal. My bargain came
with the support and relationships I have gotten from this community and that
is priceless. Exchanging thoughts, ideas and observations with you is much more
meaningful than talking to "tech support" even if they are in
Arkansas.

Thanks again. I really hope I haven't done any harm.

All the best

Brad