Internet direct companies

[JasonJCarney]

Obviously on a Klipsch forum everyone is gonna be slanted towards Klipsch products but I thought I would ask the question anyway. Why is it that most on here would reccomend an internet direct company for a subwoofer like eD, HSU, or Epik but not reccomend their speakers. Try to put aside the fact that everyone loves Klipsch. Does anyone on this forum use any of the regular speakers from these companies? Im not in the market or anything but just curious. Is it some how easier to build a quality sub than a equally nice speaker? Is it just the horn that everyone loves from Klipsch (since most don't reccomend the Klipsch subs)?

Just wondering as I kill time at work. Thx

[Quiet_Hollow]

The only rational I can muster is that the folks recommending those subs simply haven't felt what a horn-sub can do. Honestly, they are that good, but not plug-and-play. Klipsch doesn't make a home theater horn-sub sized for the average room otherwise I'd have personally given it a listen. If the masses could hear a BFM Table Tuba or Danley DTS-20 at Best Buy or Wal-Mart there'd be no contest for all but the best servo subs like Rythmik Audio. Then there's the price point issue.

Is it some how easier to build a quality sub than a equally nice speaker?

Not necessarily...

Is it just the horn that everyone loves from Klipsch (since most don't reccomend the Klipsch subs)?

I gather it's the price the heritage speakers fetch on the used market. Incredible bang for the buck. IMHO Danley makes a superior horn, but new they cost a lot more than a used La Scala or K-Horn. Figure in Danley's sales numbers and finding a pair of exactly what you want on the used market is slim to none.

[Heritage_Head]

Obviously on a Klipsch forum everyone is gonna be slanted towards Klipsch products but I thought I would ask the question anyway. Why is it that most on here would reccomend an internet direct company for a subwoofer like eD, HSU, or Epik but not reccomend their speakers. Try to put aside the fact that everyone loves Klipsch. Does anyone on this forum use any of the regular speakers from these companies? Im not in the market or anything but just curious. Is it some how easier to build a quality sub than a equally nice speaker? Is it just the horn that everyone loves from Klipsch (since most don't reccomend the Klipsch subs)?

Just wondering as I kill time at work. Thx

For me Jason it’s pretty easy I have owned two klipsch subs

(both rw-12d) and I own a def tech supercube1. The klipsch sub retails for 800

and the deftech retails for 1200. Now I only paid about 55% of those costs so I

wasn’t disappointed but my point is the price vs value. The Epik Empire for example

destroys the def tec and the rw-12d. And the cost is 800 (before shipping). The

mark up on these retail speakers is 100% so the rf-7ii costs the stores about

1600 for a pair. Same goes for their subs. I have said this before when more

internet direct company’s start selling high quality speakers (other than subs)

internet direct will put companies like klipsch out of business. It’s kinda sad

that klipsch could sell us speakers for half and still make the same amount of

money as they are now. I can only give

you my experience I have two different internet direct subs (svs/epik) and they

both destroy the klipsch and deftech. Dollar for dollar it’s sadly not even

close. I can’t speak for the other company’s but from what I have read it’s the

same across the board. If svs made

speakers as good as high end klipsch speakers people would buy them just like

the subs. I do think that klipsch is to smart not to see this though and will

adopt by possibly going internet direct.

[cornfedksboy]

I think that with a sub you are looking at fewer, less specific qualities. How low can it go, what volume of a room do I need it to fill, etc. With a speaker, you are looking for a paticular sound. That sound can't be brought out in specs and can't easily be described, hence the consistent recommendation to audition before you buy. That will continue to be the reason that company's like Klipsch stay in the market as a non-ID brand.

[JJkizak]

Well I purchased the RWS-12 and am happy with it down to 19HZ.

JJK

[Dingman]

I'm not an audiophile and so my opinion comes from the trenches.

I bought a set of Heresy II's and a set of KLF-20's recently (now that I finally have discretionary money - wanted house\cars\ect all paid off before playtime) for two reasons:

1) I really like the horns - plain and simple, tho I'm about 50, my ears apparently are still capable of hearing high frequencies. The klipsch separate out those high mids & highs and don't muddle them all up.

2) Bang for the buck. Yeah, there's other speakers I'd like to have instead - but can be rather frugal and Klipsch are an excellent value for my needs.

Now, I find my self not getting bang for the buck in buying old Marantz equipment - this might be a poor decision on my part. Not sure yet.

[StephenM]

I think that with a sub you are looking at fewer, less specific qualities. How low can it go, what volume of a room do I need it to fill, etc. With a speaker, you are looking for a paticular sound..

I agree with this. There are numerous variables that account for a standard speaker's "sound": a couple that are relatively well known even among non-audiophiles/geeks are frequency response and distortion. But two speakers that measure very similarly in these regards can still sound very different due to other characteristics: impulse response, diffraction effects, dispersion, wave launch geometry, power response, power handling, sensitivity, etc. Conversely, a subwoofer's design is a little less complicated: it needs to reach a desired volume without compression, significant distortion, or overhang, and it needs a targeted flat frequency response for a given room size (or EQ). Of course subwoofers can still have differences in these areas, and that would explain the difference between a Danley and a Bose bass module. On the other hand, if one compared competing subs from Hsu, eD, SVS, and Outlaw, you may not hear much difference at all.

[psg]

On the other hand, if one compared competing subs from Hsu, eD, SVS, and Outlaw, you may not hear much difference at all.

I agree, except for horn-loaded sub like Quiet Hollow mentionned. If people heard these things they would not consider a Hsu, eD, SVS, or Outlaw sub to be on the same playing field.

When I had a Hsu, I could always tell when I had it playing music with my Klipschorns. The bass was different. The Tuba HT bass sounds identical to Klipschorns; it just goes lower (18 Hz or so).

[Fish]

Take into consideration some have tried the svs etc....I found rumble and shaking not to may liking, I prefer beautiful bass lines.

[Rich_Guy]

I am also one who has always really liked Klipsch subs, I like the sound. I live less than 10 minutes away from HSU and a couple years ago I decided to try HSU out. I bought an HSU but returned it a week later, I didn't really like the way it sounded especially for music. I went back to Klipsch again ( I've owned 3 Klipsch subs) and was much happier. YMMV many people like HSU subs but they weren't for me.

[cornfedksboy]

On the other hand, if one compared competing subs from Hsu, eD, SVS, and Outlaw, you may not hear much difference at all.

I agree, except for horn-loaded sub like Quiet Hollow mentionned. If people heard these things they would not consider a Hsu, eD, SVS, or Outlaw sub to be on the same playing field.

When I had a Hsu, I could always tell when I had it playing music with my Klipschorns. The bass was different. The Tuba HT bass sounds identical to Klipschorns; it just goes lower (18 Hz or so).

I've not heard a horn-loaded sub, but I'd like to. Those aren't for everyone though due to size.

[psg]

On the other hand, if one compared competing subs from Hsu, eD, SVS, and Outlaw, you may not hear much difference at all.

I agree, except for horn-loaded sub like Quiet Hollow mentionned. If people heard these things they would not consider a Hsu, eD, SVS, or Outlaw sub to be on the same playing field.

When I had a Hsu, I could always tell when I had it playing music with my Klipschorns. The bass was different. The Tuba HT bass sounds identical to Klipschorns; it just goes lower (18 Hz or so).

I've not heard a horn-loaded sub, but I'd like to. Those aren't for everyone though due to size.

So true! And placement too.

[StephenM]

I agree, except for horn-loaded sub like Quiet Hollow mentionned. If people heard these things they would not consider a Hsu, eD, SVS, or Outlaw sub to be on the same playing field.

I'm not trying to imply that a horn loaded sub would be on the same playing field. I'm saying if you compared a Hsu VTF 3.3 to a SVS PB12-NSD, an Outlaw LFM-1 Plus, and an eD A3-300 in a blind listening test, differences would be far fewer than if you compared a Klipsch RF-7 to an NHT 4 Floorstander. Something like a Danley will measurably have much higher uncompressed output capability than the above as well as less distortion for any given level of output and deeper extension.

[psg]

Didn't mean to imply that you meant to imply that. []

I would have agreed 100% with your statement a year ago with no caveats. Subs shouldn't have a sound signature of their own, and so buying a sub based on specs without hearing it is much less of a gamble than buying speakers. This favors the popularity and appeal of ID subs.

But since I have heard horn-loaded sub, I now know that there is something different out there.

[StephenM]

Didn't mean to imply that you meant to imply that.

I figured; I just like to clarify.

Subs shouldn't have a sound signature of their own, and so buying a sub based on specs without hearing it

They shouldn't have a signature, but no subwoofer is ideal. It's also worth nothing that manufacturers specs leave something to be desired in terms of detail and encompassing all aspects of performance. To illustrate, I'm unaware of any company that releases data on par with the measurements done by Ilkka over at hometheatershack or the folks over at AVtalk.

But since I have heard horn-loaded sub, I now know that there is something different out there.

It's different, just like acoustic suspension enclosures are different from vented enclosures, and more cost effective at approaching the ideal of huge amounts of uncompressed deep, distortion and overhang free output; however, unless I'm mistaken, the it's still the same game, just going from high school level to the pros.

[JasonJCarney]

I think the intent of my original post was to get a feeling for why everyone swears by ID sub companies and even DIY subs but nobody ever buys these same companies actual speakers. As I said in the OP I understand this being a KLipsch forum everyone will of course own Klipsch products. I wonder if the threwad would get very different responses on AVS forum or Home Theatre.

[StephenM]

nobody ever buys these same companies actual speakers.

FWIW, I bought, own, and currently enjoy an ID speaker in addition to my Klipsch speakers. Of course, that company never really took off and folded years ago. With regards to other ID speakers, I've only actually heard one other. I'd give it a positive review if someone here asked, but I'm not inclined to go on my own spouting off about it on a Klipsch forum (tact and all), and since I haven't heard any others, I can't say diddly squat about them anyway.

[Heritage_Head]

Yes it’s kind of turning into a horn sub thread lol. People like

value look at emotive amps how popular they are. I’m not sure I agree about the

comment made that subs should all sound the same. I have owned many subs and

have heard even more and most imo sound different. Yes speakers are going to have the biggest

changes in sound one from the other but amps sound different and nobody has a problem

taking a chance with emo. Mark my words internet direct is here to stay and

word of mouth now spreads way more than ever. How many people bought there

klipsch before hearing them? Jason you bought almost all your speakers before

auditioning them. Probably because enough people on hear or another forum made

you confortable with buying them. If there

was speakers being sold as good as klipsch for half the cost online word would

get around and people would start buying them. Just like emo.

[dtel]

On the other hand, if one compared competing subs from Hsu, eD, SVS, and Outlaw, you may not hear much difference at all.

I agree, except for horn-loaded sub like Quiet Hollow mentionned. If people heard these things they would not consider a Hsu, eD, SVS, or Outlaw sub to be on the same playing field.

########## I agree 100% to my ears at least. #########

When I had a Hsu, I could always tell when I had it playing music with my Klipschorns. The bass was different. The Tuba HT bass sounds identical to Klipschorns; it just goes lower (18 Hz or so).

I've not heard a horn-loaded sub, but I'd like to. Those aren't for everyone though due to size.

Very true about the size, it easily could be a problem.

Eventually most things will be bought on the Internet, as the cost of operating a storefront gets higher and higher and sooner or later you will buy your music electronically. IMO

[JasonJCarney]

Yes it’s kind of turning into a horn sub thread lol. People like value look at emotive amps how popular they are. I’m not sure I agree about the comment made that subs should all sound the same. I have owned many subs and have heard even more and most imo sound different. Yes speakers are going to have the biggest changes in sound one from the other but amps sound different and nobody has a problem taking a chance with emo. Mark my words internet direct is here to stay and word of mouth now spreads way more than ever. How many people bought there klipsch before hearing them? Jason you bought almost all your speakers before auditioning them. Probably because enough people on hear or another forum made you confortable with buying them. If there was speakers being sold as good as klipsch for half the cost online word would get around and people would start buying them. Just like emo.

Yeah The only Klipsch I had heard 2 years ago were my promedia's.... now ive ran the gambit and am at the RF7ii's. To be fair I did hear the rf62ii's and the RF7ii's compared head to head in a local shop...... however.... I buy 99% of everything I own online. ID is great cause you can save money. The only time it's not great is when there is a probblem and you can't just bring it back to the local store. BTW this was not suppossed to be a ID vs reatiler thread either lol. [pi]