Why vinyl?

[Islander]

Why vinyl? Here's a good psychological/emotional reason: to remember how to mono-task.

When you put on an LP, you sit and listen to it. You don't go and check your email or respond to forum posts. You just sit and enjoy the music.

Nowadays, it seems kind of self-indulgent to do only one thing at a time. Too bad. My LP time is my time. The world can wait until the album side finishes.


Let's get back to the "old normal", at least in this. We'll be happier and healthier as a result.

[Boxx]

Why vinyl? because it sounds better than most of the digital "stuff" we have, you can get so much at a great price and it reminds us of a different era....

[T.H.E. Droid]

....This is why many folks clean even their new LPs before playing them.

Actually, it's important to clean a new record because the pressing process uses release agents that remain on the record and they tend to attract and stick dust. Removing them as well as treating the record with an antistatic compound helps the record stay cleaner.

[T.H.E. Droid]

.....Yes, I will correct you. No, they don't show significant audible degradation until many, many playes if played with ANYTHING like a decent arm and cartridge reasonably correctly. And I don't mean arm and a leg audiophile.

I agree. My vinyl collection goes back to the 1950's, and I've always owned the best turntable I could afford at the time, so even my early records still play very well. My 78 collection goes a lot farther back than that, and I've found that as long as the record wasn't trashed before I got it, a good cleaning works wonders. And I do play my 78's on steel-needle phonographs.

[joshnich]

Describe the technique for steam cleaning. My wife has a large hose steamer for clothes. It's very potent and I'd have to be careful not to warp them, but it has a wand wide enough to cover label to edge.

Do you simply dry with a lint free cloth as per wet cleaning, use a discwasher or other brush, or what?

Dave

Dave,

There is a lot of info on the steam cleaning here

http://community.klipsch.com/forums/t/112677.aspx?PageIndex=1

[Mallette]

And I do play my 78's on steel-needle phonographs.

While cactus needles are recommended, certainly using real steel needles and replacing correctly is a good "point." The discs were made for that and will last fine. However, I wonder why you don't use a modern table? I use an Empire 598 II with a Stanton cart and the results are awesome.

OTOH, I'd love to hear a 78 played on an "audiophile" system of the day it was released. I recall wishing I had the 200.00 the lady wanted for a showroom pristine Brunswick 78 console back in the 70's when I lived in Big Spring, TX. The lady was in her 70's and she and her husband had pruchased it new and kept it perfect.

I'm sure it would have sounded great.

Dave

[ChadHahn]

My response:

Technically this is what you will run into:

1.....Clicks, pops, scratch noise - Some records. Most of my vinyl is mostly if not entirely noise free.

2....Ramming a pencil into some records center hole to make it fit on the turntable. - I think I have had to do this to one record.

3....Putting a huge center weight on the record to help it track warped records. - I think I have had to do this to only a few records.

4....Spending about a couple of days aligning your tonearm and setting the tracking force. - It took me less than an hour.

5....Keeping the volume lower to prevent the 60 hz hum from the motor ruining the sound. - I don't know what you mean.

6....Spending big dollars to get a cartridge that you like. - I spent about $45 for a Audio Technica AT440MLa which sounds great.

7....Spending about a week of time isolating the turntable from the floor to keep dancing feet from jumping the needle. - I'll grant you this one.

8....Extreme hiss at high volume levels. (preamp, amp, cartridge) - Haven't heard this.

9....Acoustical feedback problems with some turntables. - Haven't heard this.

10....Bass
frequencies rolled down by the RIAA curve (12db) to enable getting the
bass on the record without groove interference.

11....Boosted
high frequencies to get them above the high frequency noise level of the
record with the RIAA curve knocking them back down.

12....Transient
response (sharp ding on any instrument) reduced noticeably if you have
an A/B playback setup between a CD and record ofthe same performance.

13....Vinyl's characteristics when formed require huge moisture removal techniques to prevent voids and bubbles. - Could be but how does that affect playback?

14....Some records are off center causing much wow and flutter. - Haven't noticed this.

15....At
loud levels a huge amount of extremely low noise generated in the
record groove (bass speakers moving 1/2" back and forth with no music) - Haven't heard this.

16....And I don't like them. - This should be your only item.

JJK

Chad

[oldtimer]

You either like it or you don't. There are lots of reasons why, and lots of reasons why not. It's one of those things that is futile to disagree with in threads. The late old buckster would have nothing to do with vinyl, but we loved him anyway. As a musician, vinyl sounds more authentic to me, the hassle and drawbacks are not enough to stop me from spinning.

[MikeFord]

Why not ask, Why ketchup, or in my son's case teriyaki sauce?

Below some level of quality everything tastes "better" when drenched in some sauce.

Above some level of quality the ingredients speak best alone.

**********

Steam cleaning records, seriously? No thanks, distilled water, disinfectant grade isopropel alcohol, and drop of a good surfactant like dish soap. Soft fine bristles to get down in the grooves, rinse with distilled water, and vacuum as close to 100% of the remains allow little to evaporate. Clean the needle with goop designed for it as well. Check both with a decent microscope from time to time to make sure your methods are working. Control static.

**********

Don't get to anxious about surface noise or pops and ticks. With a good system my own experience is that pop and ticks will be outside the normal sound stage, and you can learn to ignore them. They don't especially bother me, and I sometimes find them preferable to artifical removal, although some modern methods do a very clean job of removing noise.

[T.H.E. Droid]

And I do play my 78's on steel-needle phonographs.

While cactus needles are recommended, certainly using real steel needles and replacing correctly is a good "point." The discs were made for that and will last fine. However, I wonder why you don't use a modern table? I use an Empire 598 II with a Stanton cart and the results are awesome.

OTOH, I'd love to hear a 78 played on an "audiophile" system of the day it was released. I recall wishing I had the 200.00 the lady wanted for a showroom pristine Brunswick 78 console back in the 70's when I lived in Big Spring, TX. The lady was in her 70's and she and her husband had pruchased it new and kept it perfect.

I'm sure it would have sounded great.

Dave

Most people who play around with phonographs miss the the advice to change the needle with each playing, or think it's marketing hype. I buy them by the bucket load and cost is not very high. Giving a newly procured disc a good cleaning seems to help more than anything. I have a nice variety of players including a tall Brunswick high end machine, an L-door Victrola, several Edisons, and some portables including the Victrola VV50. Probably my favorite, though, is a really nice teak Danish modern console with a Drexel cabinet and guts by Magnavox. I plays extremely well and has a nice three-channel tube system.

I would like to add a modern turntable setup and almost snagged one last year, but I got too busy and it got away. Key is to find the right turntable like the belt-drive Empire you mention. None of my modern turntables have 78 RPM so I wouldn't be able to pop in the Stanton and play. Aside from listening, it would be great to transcribe some of my favorites and reduce the wear and tear. I've done that with a lot of the LP's that are out of print and irreplacable.

[Mallette]

And I do play my 78's on steel-needle phonographs.

While cactus needles are recommended, certainly using real steel needles and replacing correctly is a good "point." The discs were made for that and will last fine. However, I wonder why you don't use a modern table? I use an Empire 598 II with a Stanton cart and the results are awesome.

OTOH, I'd love to hear a 78 played on an "audiophile" system of the day it was released. I recall wishing I had the 200.00 the lady wanted for a showroom pristine Brunswick 78 console back in the 70's when I lived in Big Spring, TX. The lady was in her 70's and she and her husband had pruchased it new and kept it perfect.

I'm sure it would have sounded great.

Dave

Most people who play around with phonographs miss the the advice to change the needle with each playing, or think it's marketing hype. I buy them by the bucket load and cost is not very high. Giving a newly procured disc a good cleaning seems to help more than anything. I have a nice variety of players including a tall Brunswick high end machine, an L-door Victrola, several Edisons, and some portables including the Victrola VV50. Probably my favorite, though, is a really nice teak Danish modern console with a Drexel cabinet and guts by Magnavox. I plays extremely well and has a nice three-channel tube system.

I would like to add a modern turntable setup and almost snagged one last year, but I got too busy and it got away. Key is to find the right turntable like the belt-drive Empire you mention. None of my modern turntables have 78 RPM so I wouldn't be able to pop in the Stanton and play. Aside from listening, it would be great to transcribe some of my favorites and reduce the wear and tear. I've done that with a lot of the LP's that are out of print and irreplacable.

Coolies, Droid. For all the vinyl junkies around here I've found it odd there are so few shellac freaks. My interest in records isn't about "analog superiority" but about the MUSIC. I've said many times that of all the bad engineering to be found in digital it seems the transfer of 78s is the biggest crime. They can't seem to leave it alone and insist on trying to "improve" it with filters, denoise, whatever. Like all recordings, what I've found is that digitizing 78s at the highest res you have and with as pure a signal path as possible yields (SHOCK) the best results.

But there is nothing like seeing the surprise and disbelief on a young listeners face seeing that 80 year old platter spinning away as Benny Goodman or Kid Ory makes magic in the room again.

Dave

[JBryan]

Steam cleaning...seriously! The best way to clean a record is whatever works to remove dirt, grit and oils. With previously cleaned or new records, a simple swipe with a carbon fiber brush or dust wipe followed by a few shots from a static gun does the trick. With clean used or new but questionable records, I'll clean them on a vacuum machine (like the VPI 16.5). If there are still ticks, pops or surface noise, I'll put the record back on the vacuum machine and clean again but after I apply the cleaning solution and scrub it for a few revolutions, I'll pull out the steamer and holding it about 6- 8" away from the record surface, I'll press the button and steam the grooves for a few revolutions (I don't use any attachment nozzle but a smaller jet may work well). If its an especially noisy or dirty record, I tend to hold the nozzle closer but be aware that the record will deform as its heated (kinda scary the first time so practice on a 2nd or 3rd copy or a Barry Manilow LP). Not to worry - as soon as the steaming stops, the record reverts back to its original shape (BTW, steaming does not take out warps...d@#nit!). I then vacuum the cleaning solution and excess water as normal and follow that with a rinse of sterile distilled water, vacuum, static treatment and let dry.

That method results in the cleanest, quietest-sounding records I've experienced. A couple of things, first, use the highest grade distilled water you can find. My wife brings home sterilized distilled water from the hospital and that works great - no residue. Second, buy a new steamer and only use it to clean records. Any pre-used steamer may have a cleaning solution in it or tap water, both of which can do more damage than good and may ruin a record. As with any cleaning method, you'll find the way that best works for you. Here's a fella demonstrating his method which is similar to mine....

Have fun!

[Mallette]

Thanks, JBryan. I suppose his using distilled water in his steamer is good for the steamer, but I am pretty sure that steam IS distilled water so it doesn't make much difference in the process.

The PAW's clothes steamer has about a 7" wand on on it so I will be able to cover the entire disc at once. May be a while, as my systems are still not set up due to a household reorg that is taking longer than it takes, but I am looking forward to trying this. I also have 78s I believe this will really make a difference with.

Dave

[JBryan]

The water does go through a distilling process in that its super-heated but the residue and contaminants need to be filtered or they will be spewed out with the steam and onto your records - not good. I only pull out the steamer on 5-10% of the records I clean and a gallon of distilled water will last a long time so its not an area where you need to skimp on quality. Also, I've only used my steamer for records so I don't know what a previously used steamer will do - maybe nothing but I'd be wary if any other chemicals were used (not recommended in the manual anyway). Finally, I prefer the narrowest attachment as a jet of steam will force out more dirt and grime from the grooves - but that's just my take. Either way, I keep the label protector on throughout the cleaning process. Experiment away - you'll quickly find a way to get the job done that best suits you. Have fun!

[Mallette]

The water does go through a distilling process in that its super-heated but the residue and contaminants need to be filtered or they will be spewed out with the steam and onto your records - not good.

I've my doubts about that. Anyway, this machine has had nothing but water in it so I am not concerned. I'll be experimenting with dispensable records to start with, so no real risk.

Whatever might be in there is certainly less problematic that some of the crap and leftover southeast Asian mildue on some of these old discs.

Dave

[JJkizak]

If you put your record collection into a juke box you will never have to clean them or touch them.

JJK

[Mike Lindsey]

JB,

What's the verdict on the Virgil Fox LP? Since you didn't mention which version you had I was curious about that as well.

Mike

[Mike Lindsey]

If you put your record collection into a juke box you will never have to clean them or touch them.

JJK

Half the enjoyment is cleaning them, fiddling with the stylus, running the static brush over them, etc. For us type-A personalities this is right up our alley. []

Mike

[JJkizak]

Seeburg used to have some nice units with dial up 2 digits by phone. I think they would hold 100 albums.

JJK

[JBryan]

JB,

What's the verdict on the Virgil Fox LP? Since you didn't mention which version you had I was curious about that as well.

Mike

I haven't given it a spin yet. Sadly, last Friday, the pumping station blew a transformer which caused a fluttering power outage in our neighborhood. One of my power conditioners apparently arced and half my system was down for the weekend. I've replaced the PC with another surge strip but haven't fired everything up yet. I'll get the system back up and running tonight and I'm just hoping that everything survived....fingers crossed!