Inkabodpain Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I would like to know if a power conditioner is needed or just a good surge protector will do the same. I have read different forums stating that a power conditioner will help with sound quality.If so is there a noticable diffence in sound quality? Is this true or untrue ? I am using a battery backup/power conditioner which is mostly used for computer setup . I was told by a home theater store owner that this is as good as using a power conditioner. So what do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenM Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 At various times, I've had my system hooked up to a standard point of service surge protector, an APC UPS, and currently to an APC C10 surge protector/line conditioner I picked up for a whopping $30 when they were getting blown out by Tiger Direct. Aside from looking nifty, I've noticed no tangible improvements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 this website explains alot about the type of device you are using....not for the faint hearted.....in most cases....your UPS solution is no where near the quality of power that comes from your electric company. I would always use a surge protector...central mains , local outlet , or both. Power conditioners help if you have electrical problems , UPS's are cool for computers that need time to save data and shut down in the event of a power loss. http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.jkovach.net/projects/powerquality/apc700-load.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.jkovach.net/projects/powerquality/&usg=__8V8ycgUZYakcHSLEOVJhOF6eotg=&h=480&w=640&sz=31&hl=en&start=16&zoom=1&tbnid=FpgzMB5DfeNHCM:&tbnh=103&tbnw=137&ei=n5MhT5zSDMTvggfvq-X6CA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dapc%2Bups%2Bsine%2Bwave%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dsafari%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Den%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 UPS's are cool for computers that need time to save data and shut down in the event of a power loss And for projectors, to allow proper cool down in the case of power failure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RRFL Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I have a Furman Balanced Power Conditioner P-2300 IT E Here is the link http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=03&id=P-2300-ITE The advantage of a Balance Power Conditioner ial paths similar to that of Balanced cables between components and in some cases the signal path is also balanced. The improvement in sound quality is nothing less than remarkable IMHO. This is one of the most important components in my system. Consider, the amplifier is sampling the input signal and then modulating the power supply output to match and sending that to your speakers. So if your power supply has noise, spikes and other unwanted ripples etc being received from the mains then it's totally dependent on the power supply to filter this out. Consider, this impacts every item in your system so a top line power conditioner provides a global improvement to each of your components. There is also Isolated power banks to minimise interference between the digital components from the analog in your system. If I by-pass my Furman the difference is immediately apparent. I have not individually tested each component to see which are receiving the greater benefit. The overall benefit is well worth the expence. Fortumnately, mine was on sale at half price and there is 1 left at half price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westom Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I would like to know if a power conditioner is needed or just a good surge protector will do the same. I have read different forums stating that a power conditioner will help with sound quality. Good. If those forums were honest, then you have their numbers. Any fiction writer can claim anything. Honest means he also provided underlying facts and the always required numbers. No numbers is a first indication that he was lying. No matter how 'clean' a magic box output, an electronic supply converts that into 'dirtiest' radio frequency spikes exceeding 300 volts. How does it make the purest and most stable DC voltages for good sound? By first making electricity 'dirtier' than what even comes out of a UPS. Then 'cleaning' the 'dirtiest' power. The best electricity cleaner must already be inside an amp. Did that other forum bother to mention 300+ volt radio frequency spikes? Why not? Did they make a recommendation only on hearsay? A recommendation without numbers quickly identified one who did not even know why cleanest AC electricity is first made 'dirtiest'. So that your amp has 'purest' currents. Why did they not provide those always required specification numbers? It is called fiction or hearsay. Works because so many do not demand the always required numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnatnoop Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 no it is not "necessary" and any difference in sound quality will be small, very subtle, if any at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Backup power is a necessity in my house due to the electric company failing to maintain power to the neighborhood. Power often goes out at random without warning but it doesn't just go off and stay off. It SLAMs off and on 2 or 3 times before it stays off for a while. Sometimes 5 minutes... sometimes an hour or more. I cannot imagine that those tubes would like that very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I went to an APC battery backup due to power outages that would normally start with a flicker or two. After losing a couple of $$$ tubes I invested in the APC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InVeNtOr Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 i have a furman 20PFI. i bought that for the power correction first. second, the protection, third the filter. i do hear a cleaner sound with it. it's main purpose is the additional 55 peak amps. with everything plugged in and running, you simply don't have enough amps from a 20 amp wall circuit (usually 15 amps). what normally happens is your sound gets a little "muddy" but honestly, unless you have a 20PFI and do a A/B test, you may never hear the difference. the best reason to get a surge protector on this scale is to protect your gear. if i were to pay full price for everything i would be in the 10K arena. my Furman 20PFI was $700, so less than 10% of the total value. there has a been a couple of times (in my brand new - 1 year old-) that i have had high enough spikes that it tripped the furman off. i'm sure it wouldn't have blown my system, but i'm glad i don't have to find out if it would have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
consistent Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Hi Guys From my understaning and hearing, if your power source is poor a 'conditioner' will improve the quality of power to the point that the manufacturers of the devices hooked-up to the power are unable to predict errors/issues when when they built their devices. If your manufacturer has provided a poor power source (very noticeable in computers) you would benefit (possibly) but don't underestimate a really good power source already built in to your gear which is not hard to achieve these days. The biggest single impact I have ever heard in a power source is the use of a battery (12v) instead of mains power. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Westom, you wrote a very good post about a year or so ago that talked about power as it comes off the main line into the house. Can you dig that up and discuss the "whole house" protection practices? That would be interesting for many folks who have to deal with dirty or unreliable power before it arrives at any surge protector, etc. [H] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RRFL Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 i have a furman 20PFI. i bought that for the power correction first. second, the protection, third the filter. i do hear a cleaner sound with it. it's main purpose is the additional 55 peak amps. with everything plugged in and running, you simply don't have enough amps from a 20 amp wall circuit (usually 15 amps). what normally happens is your sound gets a little "muddy" but honestly, unless you have a 20PFI and do a A/B test, you may never hear the difference. the best reason to get a surge protector on this scale is to protect your gear. if i were to pay full price for everything i would be in the 10K arena. my Furman 20PFI was $700, so less than 10% of the total value. there has a been a couple of times (in my brand new - 1 year old-) that i have had high enough spikes that it tripped the furman off. i'm sure it wouldn't have blown my system, but i'm glad i don't have to find out if it would have. For myself the 20PFI was my first choice for all the reasons you have stated. My 2 new amps I got for my jubs have 1800watt power supplies each and the extra peak power delivery from the 20PFI plus all the other features makes it an absolute winner IMHO. What had me look at the stabilised supply model and then the symmetrically balance power model was the fact that my 2 new amps are basically monster power supplies with massive current storage and the jubs are so sensitive I will mostly only get to use 1 or 2 watts when I turn it up loud. The symmetrically balance power model was available at half price so I could not resist. The Furman power conditioner makes a significant difference to the system. It is noticeable within seconds my jaw dropped. I did not expect such a massive improvement. It's like I got new tweeters that were more invisible than before and I thought before was pretty hard to beat. I recommend getting a Furman from my personal experience on the improvement in the system performance. Then there are all of the technical benefits provided so you get long life trouble free enjoyment from your system. If your power supply is random your equipment will perform random due to the way amplifiers work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westom Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Westom, you wrote a very good post about a year or so ago that talked about power as it comes off the main line into the house. AC power can have many anomalies. Some best solutions already exist inside appliances. Others are best accomplished before that anomaly enters the building. Nothing protects from everything. Solutions start by first identifying the anomaly. For example, all appliances already contain protection from most surges. How often are you replacing dimmer switches, GFCIs, and dishwashers daily? The concern is a rare transient that can overwhelm that internal protection. An anomaly typically on the order of hundreds of thousands of joules. It seeks earth ground. Either earth it before it can enter the building. If permitted inside, it will go hunting for earth destructively via appliances. Nothing inside can avert that hunt. For example, a direct lightning strike to wires down the street is a direct strike to all household appliances. If that current is permitted inside. Every facility that cannot have damage connects that transient to single point earth ground before it enters a building. If that transient is on a cable TV wire, then the cable shield connects to your single point ground before entering the building. That short wire (from cable to earth) is the best protection possible. Only made better by upgrading the earthing ground. Other wires (ie telephone, AC electric) cannot connect directly to earth. So make that low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth via a 'whole house' protector. Then energy need not go hunting destructively inside the building. Then everything - even dimmer switches, clock radios, the refrigerator, and furnace are protected. All need that protection. Then a surge does not overwhelm superior protection already inside each appliance. A surge is a current whose voltage increases, as necessary, to blow through anything that might stop it. Any power conditioner that protects by filtering simple gets blown through by an increasing voltage. Voltage exists only if a conditioner tried to stop or absorb that energy. But again, no one device solves all power anomalies. Each anomaly must be defined. Then manufacturer specifications consulted to discover where or if that solution exists. I don't know what that old post said. Hopefully this is similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 I couldn't tell you if the addition made any change in sound one way or the other. It was simply put in so hot tubes would not get 're-lit' by momentary power outages. Whatever it means, my APC is spec'd at: Output Output Power Capacity 600 Watts / 1000 VA Max Configurable Power 600 Watts / 1000 VA Nominal Output Voltage 120V Waveform Type Stepped approximation to a sinewave Output Connections (12) NEMA 5-15R Input Nominal Input Voltage 120V Input Frequency 50/60 Hz +/- 3 Hz (auto sensing) Input Connections IEC-320 C14 Cord Length 3.05 meters Input voltage range for main operations 90 - 140V Maximum Input Current 12A Input Breaker Capacity 15.0 A Surge energy rating 3200 Joules Filtering Full time multi-pole noise filtering : 0.7% IEEE surge let-through : zero clamping response time : meets UL 1449 Data Line Protection RJ-11 Modem/Fax protection (two wire single line),Cable modem / Video protection,Co-axial Video / Cable protection Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 power company sine wave....good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 cheap UPS....square wave...loss of dynamics....bad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 another cheap ups...another square wave...loss of dynamics...bad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 a good ups...good sine wave....no loss of dynamics (up to power rating of UPS)...good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 honda generator...good sine wave....no loss of dynamics (up to rated power) good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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