babadono Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Maybe he is so blown away he can't respond[] W.C. we are all waitng with baited breath. Seriously, we hope nothing bad has happened. babadono Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Maybe he is so blown away he can't respond W.C. we are all waitng with baited breath. Seriously, we hope nothing bad has happened. babadono Sorry guys. It may be partly my fault. I had him busy trying to head off a particularly difficult problem concerning music and Franco-American relations. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panacea Engineering Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 Bob, Thanks........and glad we could help. They are ordered.... Had to cut gaskets and put everything together...and Of course I had to redrill the brackets. Nothing lined up...no matter how I turned them. The slots should have been 1/2" longer..... We have actually been listening since about 2:30 PM or so and I must say....First Impression is...I AM impressed....It is a much "Bigger" sound, for lack of a better term. We are playing through the two way passives....Running through the test CD's that Claude left with me.......great mixture of music. The K 402 is right channel and the Martinelli is on the left. K 402 has great projection...kinda room filling, where the Martinelli is more directionsl. the clarity for both is about the same, leaning towards the Martinelli for "Crispness". Again just first impressions with passives. Waiting for the Bass singer in the five man quartet....Northfield Four, I think. More to follow..........We will be working on the DX-38 tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panacea Engineering Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 here are the connections to the passive....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panacea Engineering Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 Here it is in the corner Right Channel - K 402 - TAD Driver Passive two Way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panacea Engineering Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 And............Finally for today....Tomorrow's Project........and we will get into the MiniDSP over the weekend...should be FUN.....! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Hey Guys, Someone really needs to break the news to Heli001. If he simply gets over these silly notions of sleeping and eating, he would have these comparisons completed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 And............Finally for today....Tomorrow's Project........and we will get into the MiniDSP over the weekend...should be FUN.....! Well, the DX 38 with the full tilt boogie PEQ will make a HUGE difference vs. "effectively generic" passives" with the wrong Xover point. You WILL be blown away over the difference, expeically since the bass bin is also EQ'd HAH!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Hey heli001 Sorry if I missed something previously posted but what kind of passive are you using? The reason I ask is because of the very nature of these two horns there is no way a single design passive can be optimized for both of these horns. One will definitly not be reaching it's full potential. miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Hey heli001..... what amplifiers will you be using? If they are the same for LF and HF when you go active then that makes it simple but if they have different power and/or have different input sensitivity then heads-up cause getting the correct balance between the LF and HF is very important. Keep having fun[Y] miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panacea Engineering Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 Claude and Mike, I realize that the passives are not at the correct crossover for the TADS, as it should be around the vicinity of 500Hz, but I must tell you, that at 750 Hz, it ain't too damn shabby.......for one thing, the higher cross gives the Base Bin a bit of breathing room and you should hear the drums on "Hotel California"...The Intro will bring tears to your eyes.....Please don't "Condem" it until you have experienced it for yourself. We will do the DX-38 as designed by Roy and see what comes, but please don't tall me what I am hearing, as I am perfectly capable of judging the quality of sound, for myself. Claude: BTW, I am not sure where you are getting the "Generic" passive term from and I am not easily Blown away...as you should well know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 you should hear the drums on "Hotel California"...The Intro will bring tears to your eyes..... It was the intro to that song when I first heard the Jubilee's and right after that initial (kickdrum?) I smiled to myself and said "THAT is the sound I've been looking for" and ordered them the following week. So, that listening test took all of what, 30 seconds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panacea Engineering Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 Mike, At present, we are running a S.A.E. SS A502. I personally am very fond of S.A.E. equipment and have used it for the past thirty years. There are also a myriad of other SS amps out there that will do an equally good job of getting the signal to the speakers. I can easily Bi-Amp with Quicksilver Tubes, but for simplicity of testing, we will use the A502 for everything. I want to eliminate as many varibles as possible and stay in the "Real World", that most people can afford. One of my problems is: If you have to go active and have some special settings on a processor that is very expensive, becoming more difficult to find and then EQ and PEQ the hell out of it....what is the point? I think we all would like a REALISTIC system, that sounds great, without having to spend a fortune, in all of the ancillary equipment. W. C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panacea Engineering Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 Richard, That Intro is probably in the top five for a listening test of speakers...some may feel different, but I know what that particular Lick is supposed to sound like Live, as I have heard it many times from Back Stage......Yep...30 seconds is enough to tell you the quality of the Reproduction...just shut your eyes and enjoy.....! I personally do not need any type of graph or measurement to tell me how it sounds....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Claude: BTW, I am not sure where you are getting the "Generic" passive term from and I am not easily Blown away...as you should well know. Of course, I know that, you know me better than that and vice versa. I was not being critical of your methods at all, just trying to cheer you on to what I think IS optimium for that horn/driver combo.......you are so close!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Claude and Mike, I realize that the passives are not at the correct crossover for the TADS, as it should be around the vicinity of 500Hz, but I must tell you, that at 750 Hz, it ain't too *** shabby.......for one thing, the higher cross gives the Base Bin a bit of breathing room and you should hear the drums on "Hotel California"...The Intro will bring tears to your eyes.....Please don't "Condem" it until you have experienced it for yourself. We will do the DX-38 as designed by Roy and see what comes, but please don't tall me what I am hearing, as I am perfectly capable of judging the quality of sound, for myself. Claude: BTW, I am not sure where you are getting the "Generic" passive term from and I am not easily Blown away...as you should well know. heli001 First I'm here to have fun and try to help but if in pointing out issues that you might not be aware of is a problem then sorry and I will just stop posting but Please don't accuse someone of condeming something when you invited people to help and please where have I done anything but try to help you so far? The crossovers being wrong for the TADs isn't what I'm pointing out. These two horn regardless of drivers chosen will require totally different balancing networks because the two designs have drastically different polar patterns and this has to be taken into account in the passive crossover balancing network. You couldn't take Roy's passive networks or his active programs and apply them to a different horn and expect to hear and get the best sound let alone an accurate reproduction if that is the goal. Just a note: Speaking from personel experience when I have experimented and created my own programs for the Jub that an error in balancing a system can cause some aspects of some recordings to stand out as impressive only to discover later after more listening that there are problems in the balancing. miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 you should hear the drums on "Hotel California"...The Intro will bring tears to your eyes..... It was the intro to that song when I first heard the Jubilee's and right after that initial (kickdrum?) I smiled to myself and said "THAT is the sound I've been looking for" and ordered them the following week. So, that listening test took all of what, 30 seconds? For the record, gentlemen, that is NOT a kick drum it's a sub-harmonically sythsized bass from a pickup in a CONGA DRUM. The DVD Video (Hell Frezzes Over) clearly shows this. It is great demo because a good horn setup will pick up the high frequency resonance on the second hand strike on the edge of the head........very distinct shift in timbre, which many non-horn speaker/room anomalies will blur to the point of non-detection. It's one of my tests as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 One of my problems is: If you have to go active and have some special settings on a processor that is very expensive, becoming more difficult to find and then EQ and PEQ the hell out of it....what is the point? This is part of the problem for active proponets. There is no "EQ or PEQ the hell out of it" going on here. It's for all intents a frequency dependent voltage dividing network done actively at low level voltages versus a passive which again is a frequency dependent voltage dividing network at high level voltages and both are ultimately about just a means to acheive the proper acoustical balance of the loudspeaker system. For example in Roy's designs of both active and passive for the Jubs his goal is to have the passive perform as close as possible to the active program acoustically speaking. You can accomplish this at low level voltage with an active or at high level with passive componets but the acoustical goal is the same for both. When Roy designed the passive for the Jub/K402/TAD he had already developed the active program and his passive design was an all out high performance design to emulate it as close as possible with the real world limitations of passive designs (and please don't take this a condeming passives because they do have benefits). If you hear these two options it is very impressive in how close these different options sound. miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panacea Engineering Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 Mike, Please don't take me wrong, as I really do appreciate your input and explinations. Your technical knowledge is far beyond mine and I am just trying to satisfy, in my mind, which sounds better to me. It is just the beginning and I have just made a few very brief observations, on the fly, so to speak. I am just of the OLD and I mean very OLD.....[] school of passives. I use electronic crossovers for our Commercial work and they have a place there. The passive for Home use, just seems like the cleaner and "possibly" less expensive route for the average listner. No matter HOW the sound is reproduced, I only have my ears to tell me how it sounds. All I am saying IS, after a few hours of listening to the K 402's through, evidently the wrong passives, they sound pretty good. We just began the testing and I don't want to kill the horse before it even begins to pul the cart. We will have many more pages to critique and discuss the outcome of what I am doing, but I also want to keep this as simple as I can. I am not looking to reinvent the wheel, after all, it is just supposed to be a comparison of what sounds better to me....YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rigma Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 heli,I am not as diplomatic as my friend Mike. To compare the 402/TAD to any other horn/driver without using a balancing network, either passive or active, designed for each is ridiculous. Sorry for being so blunt but it is meaningless!rigma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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