Tubes vs. SS

[CECAA850]

i just hope yer not a good shot

I'm not. That's why I have a semi auto 12ga.

BTW, that's a nice sounding SS amp.

[beeker]

i just hope yer not a good shot

I'm not. That's why I have a semi auto 12ga.

BTW, that's a nice sounding SS amp.

I figured that... i really dont know what im gonna do.

[CECAA850]

i just hope yer not a good shot

I'm not. That's why I have a semi auto 12ga.

BTW, that's a nice sounding SS amp.

I figured that... i really dont know what im gonna do.

I'd be impressed if you just made it past Otto (the house Rottie).

[Schu]

A tube simply behaves different from a transistor, and the difference is absolutely important in audio because the difference involves distortion.

you're trying to say tubes have less distortion than good Solid State components?

really?

[beeker]

i just hope yer not a good shot

I'm not. That's why I have a semi auto 12ga.

BTW, that's a nice sounding SS amp.

I figured that... i really dont know what im gonna do.

I'd be impressed if you just made it past Otto (the house Rottie).

I wouldnt even think about it but i can dream lol I love animals. my last audio gathering(in a built for audio seperate from house mostly for a large polk collection all modded and mint but man just sounded horrible to be honest, i didnt have the heart to be honest ya know lol) i got a bunch of muddy footprints playing with the dogs(muddy outside they had electric fence) they had all over my suit. Im just leaving them that way the prints look cool lol. They were stocky little barking dogs. My buddy that gets 1st dibs on all my gear when i sell, also stores stuff in his house for me has a big female pit i just love. The owners always hollar at the dogs get down or get them out of here! ya know but im on the floor playing with them. I was raised with a basset and lately just have had cats. So my cat buddy i just cant live without.

I would love to hear that whole system with the juicy crown scala tjoeb cd etc man i bet its just to die for lol omg i cant believe i just said that. No pun intended lol. I really would love to hear it. As much if not more than anything else around here. imo the mcintosh gear is the most common what alotta people want to hear iv owned and heard enough of the common stuff that setup in particular has drawn me in ever since i got on this forum. Let alone wanting to hear your theater in particular sub system. Your room 1 stuff though has to be as good as it gets.

I really just like hearing anything but honestly if there aint klipsch speakers involved it simply fails. Thats a simple fact. Not to be bias whatsoever and sure some speakers are obviously good, sept for some pa systems iv heard around my town lately and forever TUBES or SOLID STATE klipsch or efficient speakers at least has to be in use. Thats my current bottom line.

With my draw to tubes its gotta be part of hearing and owning so much solid state that im possibly stuck in the middle of my own experiment coming to terms with tube gear. Til a few years ago i hadnt even had a descent pre and just used a surround sound receiver. Im still on the curve for sure obviously learning..

[ClaudeJ1]

Of course pure personal preference is ultimately the only thing that counts when people lay down their money, but aside from such tastes, there are other rationale for noting the distinction between SS and tube amps. A tube simply behaves different from a transistor, and the difference is absolutely important in audio because the difference involves distortion. There is absolutely no reason on earth to use tubes to build a GPS, or a computer, or a television. Transistors in all those cases are by far superior. Ahhh, but in an amplifier, the clear cut advantage of the tube is not based on tastes or preference, but rather on the fact of how tubes operate. They are natural linear amplifiers with low distortion and need no feedback to control them. The clip softly and symmetrically. Less components are needed for any particular amplifier design. They have more dynamic range. The are ON all the time. In short, they produce less complex distortion signatures just by the nature of their physical operation.

In spite of all their disadvantages, heat, size, cost - they have a niche application in which they are inherently superior: audio amplifiers.

That is the best summary of tube amplification benefits I have ever read. Hats off to ya, mon!

[Chris A]

A tube simply behaves different from a transistor, and the difference is absolutely important in audio because the difference involves distortion.

you're trying to say tubes have less distortion than good Solid State components?

really?

I am referring to the individual devices themselves. A triode has a less complex distortion signature than a BJT or FET, or pentode.

Here is an article written by Nelson Pass that might lend a little insight into what Mark is implying in his response. It's not clear from the surface of the argument why tubes might sound better than SS (BJT) amplifiers with moderate amounts of feedback: while BJT amps with feedback might have lower overall distortion figures, it turns out the the ear is more sensitive to the higher order harmonics induced in these sort of amplifiers using feedback. This isn't an obvious portion of the discussion.

Chris

[Mallette]

Well, I am not sure I actually ever gave my own opinion in the "If you could only have one..." tube thread I started a while back, but here it is: Tube preamp uber alles. While a tube amp can ameliorate the clinical sound of an SS preamp for horns, a clean SS amp will pass nicely the tube qualities of a fine tube preamp doing what SS amps do best...which is simply amplifying.

If you are sitting on the fence, just stay there...

Dave

Edited April 4, 2014 by Mallette

[Schu]

Here is an article written by Nelson Pass that might lend a little insight into what Mark is implying in his response. It's not clear from the surface of the argument why tubes might sound better than SS (BJT) amplifiers with moderate amounts of feedback: while BJT amps with feedback might have lower overall distortion figures, it turns out the the ear is more sensitive to the higher order harmonics induced in these sort of amplifiers using feedback. This isn't an obvious portion of the discussion.

Chris

that is a very interesting article... and I am still digesting it, but there is no mention of D class ( or Perhaps Class D shouldn't even be mentioned in the context of which is better tubes or A/AB?)

The class D specs below are, for the most part, very good. and while they don't have anything to do with how well the amp sounds or how musical it is in it's component grouping, they are none the less impressive (if true).

Minimum Load: 3 ohms

Peak Output Current: 35 amperes

Frequency Response: +/-3 dB 1.5Hz-70KHz, all loads

THD+N: 0.003% 1W, 1KHz, 4 ohms

IMD (CCIF): 0.0003%, 1W, 14:15KHz, 4 ohms

Output noise: 35uVRMS A-weighted 10Hz-20KHz

Voltage gain: 27dB (single ended or balanced input)

Damping factor: >1000

Output Impedance at 100Hz: <8 milliohms

Dynamic Range: 121dB

Input Voltage for Max Output: 2Vrms

Edited April 4, 2014 by Schu

[Chris A]

Pass has stated that the promise of class D amplifiers is great, but the day when it comes to fruition for truly high quality to match the best of the other type of amplifiers has yet to arrive in practice. I'll see if I can hunt down where he said that, but that gives you a clue as to why he didn't bring that into the discussion.

Note that the operation of a class D amplifier is a switching amplifier: on or off. So the dynamics of distortion with these type of designs will be different. Pass also uses his ears as the last testing device, so he is talking about those class D amplifiers that he's heard - usually with open baffle Lowther-type full range drivers.

Chris

P.S.: See the discussion on class D toward the bottom of this article: http://audiophilereview.com/amps/nelson-pass-interview.html

and this article: http://www.diyaudio....html#post290296

Edited April 4, 2014 by Chris A

[Chris A]

dp

Edited April 4, 2014 by Chris A

[Mallette]

Pass also uses his ears as the last testing device, so he is talking about those class D amplifiers that he's heard - usually with open baffle Lowther-type full range drivers.

I'd be interested in when he said Class D had great promise. I use my ears as the ultimate test as well, and Class D is well past SS for my ears already.

Dave

[Taz]

i just hope yer not a good shot

I'm not. That's why I have a semi auto 12ga.

BTW, that's a nice sounding SS amp.

I figured that... i really dont know what im gonna do.

I'd be impressed if you just made it past Otto (the house Rottie).

Some Steak, a few Lady dogs in heat just outside and he might just forget what his job is

[Schu]

Thanks for that technical info... its very interesting.

Its funny pass mentioned switchings speeds as the culprit... and that is exactly the thing bel canto told me as the single most musicality zapping issue when I was talking to them about power sources for my bc's in that inadequate power supply can really kill the magic in it's amplifiers.

One thing that needs to be mentioned also is that article/comment is from quite a while ago... 2003. Things have moved on substainily in the class d world since then.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Schu

[Mallette]

One thing that needs to be mentioned also is that article/comment is from quite a while ago... 2003. Things have moved on substainily in the class d world since then.

Yep. I figured it was old. No comparison to the ones of the past few years.

Dave

[Chris A]

One thing that needs to be mentioned also is that article/comment is from quite a while ago... 2003. Things have moved on substantially in the class d world since then.

See http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/189150-what-happened-digital-amp-revolution-2.html#post2581445

Note that I'm not defending Nelson Pass on his opinions: I'd recommend emailing/PMing him at DIYAudio. He'll usually answer reasonable questions. I merely like his First Watt F3 amplifier that he built...and that I now own (a lot).

Chris

Edited April 4, 2014 by Chris A