Just ordered a Harman Kardon AVR 3600

[dtel]

LOL There likely will not be a loss regardless which unit I decide to sell

Just giving you a hard time, just hoping it's a easy choice for you in the end. Just think of it this way, it's probably at most a year or so decision anyway before something catches your eye, or the dreaded format change. []

[Youthman]

Well, I might end up keeping the UMC-1 for a 2ch setup. Check out this thread. []

[Youthman]

That's another thing I really enjoy on the Klipsch digital subs having full control of the sub by remote, even presets so you can have different saved settings for HT and music, etc.

I have a remote for my velodyne but since I purchased the RSW-15, I haven't turned the Velodyne back on. Really don't "need" it. Just trying to decide whether or not to keep or sell it.

[Youthman]

+1 for a detailed review

Hope to do that this weekend.

[roaddog359]

Youthman, I would keep the UMC-2 for 2 ch if you have a place to use it. I did not have any place to use mine. I wanted to keep it for 2 ch but then I needed an amp. Plus I needed the extra money to pay down some debt.

[Heritage_Head]

Congrats youth looks really nice. So what do you think of it vs the emo (sorry if you already posted that didn't see it).

[Youthman]

Just about to head into the HT to do some testing.

[derrickdj1]

I have a remote for my velodyne but since I purchased the RSW-15, I haven't turned the Velodyne back on.

That is saying alot for the RSW-15. You can always low pass it to keep it out of the way of the RSW-15 and get the subsonics?

[willland]

That is saying alot for the RSW-15. You can always low pass it to keep it out of the way of the RSW-15 and get the subsonics?

I agree, set that HGS15's crossover at 30Hz and put in U-571, Flight of the Phoenix, or Black Hawk Down and you will be glad you kept the Velo.

Bill

[Youthman]

Well, I just spent almost 2 hours in the HT. Here are the following disks that I used for comparison and some brief notes that I jotted down during the tests.

Bluray Movies:

Master and Commander: "Under Attack" scene at the beginning
The HK had more detail. Surround effects seemed much more enveloping and the overall feeling was more impactful

Avengers: Scene at beginning when Loki enters through the portal
Dialogue was clearer and more intelligible. UMC-1 was slightly muffled in the center channel.

Transformers: Scene at beginning when helicopter lands on bass and attacks
This was a very noticable difference between the two units. When the blades began to fold, the HK was very detailed, almost bright sounding. The high frequencies were more pronounced. Very sharp, crystal clear sound effects as the chopper made it's transformation. The UMC-1 sound was more laid back and subtle.

Concert DVD's:

Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds: Live in Radio City
HK had better separation of the two guitars, Dave's voice sounded more natural with the HK than the UMC-1. Clarity of instruments was noticably better with the HK as well as the brightness and detail in each pluck of the guitars.

Nora Jones:
Piano sounded more detailed with HK. HK sounded more natural tone. Vocals were smoothe and clear with HK, a little muffled with UMC-1.

Music Settings:
With the concerts, I switched between 2ch and surround modes. With the UMC-1, I never really cared to listen to Music in anything but 2ch because it didn't sound natural with the voices coming from the center channel. I found a fantastic DSP with the HK called DTS-NEO:6 Music. With that setting, there was more "presence" and enveloping since the surrounds were engaged but although the vocals were anchored on the screen, when I got up to listen to the center, I noticed it was on, but the majority of the vocals were still coming out of the mains. That's PERFECT for music! The center was on to help fill the center area, but it does not route the vocals to come primarily out of the center channel speaker.

Conclusion:
Although the UMC-1 is a solid unit and sounds great for HT and 2ch, to my ears, the HK had a brighter sound (which I have always prefered) and to me, had a much richer sound to it than the UMC-1. I really believe a lot of it has to do with the fact that I do not have the EQ set right with the UMC-1. I believe the rears are "Flat" as I have no idea how to EQ them. So that likely has an effect on how the UMC-1 sounds compared to the HK. As others have stated, the UMC-1 is a tweekers paradise. There are so many ways to dial in the UMC-1 and customize to your liking, I'm just not knowledgable enough in that area to know which frequencies to boost and which ones to cut. I was just guessing and the EQ settings for the LCR channels that my ears liked the best ended up with all of the frequencies above the 1/2 way mark and in the shape of a smile (higher on bass and treble frequencies and lower in the midrange). Again, I absolutely know this is NOT how to properly EQ the UMC-1 but I only did what I knew to do.

To me, the HK has a great Auto Calibration software that takes the guesswork out of EQ'ing the room based on the acoustics of my room. The UMC-1's EmoQ Auto Calibration software didn't do much for me.

I have thoroughly enjoyed the Emotiva UMC-1. In my simple setup, it was not the nightmare that many people experienced when they first came out. I think I only experienced the center channel dropout 2 or 3 times since I've owned it. Simply switching sources brought it back.

I will be taking current pics of the UMC-1 and listing it in the Emo Forum, Klipsch Forum and then CL and Ebay if it doesn't sell.

I can enthusiastically say that so far, I highly recommend the HK AVR3600 and am very happy with my purchase. More than likely, when I build the 2ch system in the living room, I will be purchasing another HK unit as this has always been the sound that has been most pleasing to my ears.

[Youthman]

Derrick and Willland, that makes sense. I just don't need an extra 3db with both subs set at 80Hz. I'll try setting the sub much lower and see how it sounds. I don't have U-571, FOP or BHD movies. [] There is a huge LF drop in the original Transformers when Ironhide flips and discharges his jet rockets. I can try that sometime to see if it is worth keeping the Velodyne. I would love to use that space for movie storage. That was the bad thing about adding a second sub, I have very little space to store DVD's in.

[dtel]

I can enthusiastically say that so far, I highly recommend the HK AVR3600 and am very happy with my purchase. More than likely, when I build the 2ch system in the living room, I will be purchasing another HK unit as this has always been the sound that has been most pleasing to my ears.

Nice description of what you heard and it sounds like an easy choice, I have never had a HK AVR just a 2 Ch 930 and I love the way it sounds.

It could be just what you said having a lot to do with the auto calibration differences.

[Knorbu]

Youthman , I know the choice wasn't an easy one to make, the UMC-1 has a lot of nice features that the Harman does not. I went back to the HK mainly because I liked the options it offered for bass management. I think the EZQ calibration really hones in on the 3 woofers on the 83's, and brings out the best in them. The UMC had a nice sound and was very nice for setting levels . If I had more experience and patience with the Umc it would have made my choice a lot tougher as well.

As for the HK,I am curious as to how you thought things sounded running the 83's as large,and using the bass management tools that are offered by doing so...also, since they changed to the different amps,does it run on the warm side? I really liked how cool the UMC ran.

Mark

[Vital]

I'm surprised that the HK was so much nicer sounding. I like HK a lot and love their sound as well so I guess I shouldnt be that surprised. I have tweaked every speakers EQ quite a bit on my UMC's so to me the UMC sounds great although I would love to hear the HK 3600, 3650 or 3700 on my system just to A&B them. I could be missing something and not even know it. I think I'm going to hold out and buy the XMC with my one of my upgrade cards and see where things stand at that point. I will sell a UMC and use the upgrade card so I should be getting an XMC for about the same price of an HK give or take a few bucks.

Good review, glad you like the HK. IMO HK is one of the best AVRs out there, they may not have as many bells and whistles as some but their sound and power is second to none.

[Heritage_Head]

Im sure on the new high end models they have all the bells and whistles the other brands have (for the most part).

[dtel]

I could be missing something and not even know it

That is the idea that makes everyone want to try so many different combinations.

[MichaelandKlipsch]

Well youth, that review will most likely spread like an epidemic on here and several people will be thinking of upgrading and doing comparisons hehe.

[Youthman]

It could be just what you said having a lot to do with the auto calibration differences.

Yeah, that's what I'm unsure of. It could be just what "my ears" prefer, it could be a lack of EQ ability on my end, or it could be that the HK is just a better unit. Really not sure but regardless, I'm keeping the HK. []

Nice description of what you heard

I
think that is the key here....it's what I heard. The longer I'm into
audio, I'm finding people's ears are VERY different. Some hear
subtleties, while others do not. Often time, I cannot explain what
exactly I'm hearing (say between two speakers) other than they sound
different. That's why I have always said, I do not believe I have
"Critical Ears". Maybe that's why I prefer a brighter sound (like when I
moved from Polk Audio to Klipsch).

Youthman , I know the choice wasn't an easy one
to make, the UMC-1 has a lot of nice features that the Harman does
not.

Actually, once I sat down for 2hrs, it was pretty
obvious which one "my ears" preferred. I haven't gone through the HK
totally yet. Just curious what nice features that the Harman does not
have that you referring to? I know the UMC-1 has triggers, XLR Sub Out
and extra settings like Slope for the sub Xover and the remote has on
the fly level adjustments.

From what I can see, the HK has some
features that the UMC-1 doesn't have (Sirrus, Front A/V jacks, Quadruple
Crossover Bass Management (not sure what this is...will have to look it
up), Front USB Port for Firmware Updates (something Emotiva
should have done).

I went back to the HK mainly because I liked the options it offered for bass management.

I'll
have to look into this. Not sure where the settings are for "bass
management". As stated above, I noticed the HK has Quadruple Bass
Crossover Management.

I am curious as to how you thought things sounded running the 83's as large,

I'll
try switching it back and forth to see which I like better. In the
past, I have typically liked how the 83's sounded as Large. Not sure
with the HK

since they changed to the
different amps,does it run on the warm side? I really liked how cool the
UMC ran.

I have had it playing for 30 minutes and I can
feel a little warm air coming from the vents but it's not hot to touch
at all like my Onkyo units used to be. I don't expect it to get hot
since I'm not using the internal amps. No need to with my 220 x 5
Parasound amp. [] I don't want to embarass the HK. []

I'm surprised that the HK was so much nicer
sounding....I have tweaked every speakers EQ quite a bit on my UMC's so
to me the UMC sounds great

As stated, I'm not much of a
tweeker and am pretty certain I don't have it EQ'd "properly". Wish you
were close to come by and help me set it up properly. I might feel
differently.

I could be missing something and not even know it.

Really
no way to know without actually doing it yourself. But even if you
did, your ears are different, your room acoustics are different and you
have different components. My Parasound might sound fantastic with the
HK and only soso with the UMC-1. There are just too many variables to
say A unit is better than B unit in all situations.

Im sure on the new high end models they
have all the bells and whistles the other brands have (for the most
part).

Probably so. Plus, the 3600 is a 2yr old model. I
haven't looked at their current offerings mainly because I tend to buy a
few year old technology to save tons of money.

That is the idea that makes everyone want to try so many different combinations.

Correct, you never know until you get it hooked up in your system. Your setup and room could totally sound different than mine.

Well youth, that review will most
likely spread like an epidemic on here and several people will be
thinking of upgrading and doing comparisons hehe.

I'm not sure about that. []
I'm not going to say that the HK is the best unit out there by any
means. I do however feel it is a fantastic unit and can be had a very
great price.

[Knorbu]

Thanks for taking the time to answer those questions Youthman.

You summed up the difference's very well...., F.Y.I , the quadruple bass management is available when setting front speakers to Large. It allows other options in the Sub Mode ( in the speaker GUI) to appear ...you can run sub as LFE.. ..L&R+LFE .....or OFF. . I am assuming that setting a crossover on the left and right is the 4th option since it is called quadruple bass management.... The difference in my stuff is huge when I set the mains to large, you may or may not find it be so since you have subs that are more capable than mine. .

the newer amp power sections must run cooler, as my 354 runs very warm and I use external amps also.

Enjoy! ,

Mark

[Youthman]

F.Y.I , the quadruple bass management is available when setting front speakers to Large. It allows other options in the Sub Mode ( in the speaker GUI) to appear ...you can run sub as LFE.. ..L&R+LFE .....or OFF.

Gotcha. I do remember seeing that when I first set it up manually.

The auto calibration set the Fronts at 60Hz, Center at 40Hz and Surrounds at 100Hz.

The difference in my stuff is huge when I set the mains to large, you may or may not find it be so since you have subs that are more capable than mine. .

I'll definitely try it out the different options and see how it sounds. Yeah, the RSW-15 is a beast of a sub. I definitely don't feel like I'm lacking in bass with the mains set at 60Hz.

the newer amp power sections must run cooler, as my 354 runs very warm and I use external amps also.

I'll have to check it after watching an entire movie. Might get hotter when driven hard.