Maybe we shouldn't give opinions on value of speakers.

[WMcD]

You may have noticed that I removed my comment on the value of the vintage Cornwall. I should have followed my first instincts.

There are several reasons why we should consider not giving such opinions.

1. Of couse there are many variables in the equation. We don't know whether all drivers are working. The condition of the veneer can not be judged with accuracy from pictures.

2. In larger systems, the cost of shipping will influence the ultimate cost. A speaker within driving distance is worth more.

The above are pretty obvious but need saying.

3. But consider also:

Suppose the buyer stops by here to get an estimate, as accurate as it may be. The seller can see it too. But then the seller knows the advice given and that could get in the way of horse-trading.

The other potential problem is: What if our estimate is abnormally low. The buyer might stick to that and some less deserving person bids higher. (We want our members to win, don't we?)

If our estimate is high, then again horsetrading is influenced and the buyer pays too much.

It is a good assumption that everyone appearing here is dealing in good faith. Still, buyers and sellers of similar units, in the near future, are effected by and can affect the market price by giving opinions on value.

The above assumes that a price mentioned on the forum is taken as having some weight. Maybe not. But these are some issues to consider.

Smile,

WMcD

[pzannucci]

Good Points though I am not sure we could stop it.

Things I see affecting the "value" provided by one or more of the forum members are:

1. History - selling and buying

2. Diehard Klipsch fan

3. Subjectivity in merchandise quality

Just to name a few.

I myself have bought Klipshorns from $675 a pair to $1500+. Each was in a particular condition as you might tell. Multiple pairs of Forte, Heresy, Cornwall, LaScala, KLFs, and RBs. It all comes down to what you are willing to pay (horse trading), if you are reselling, and bottom line worth to you. When I purchased they were worth it, when sold, maybe not what I paid but I would hope that I provide a reasonable deal to the next guy and they are worth it to them.

I find that when someone comes on this forum to ask "how much is it worth", that the person answering is very heavily weighting in the three items I mentioned above. Others that are selling are hoping for a high #2 factor so they can get top dollar (that's why they are probably here if they don't have a reasonable forum count.

[Deang]

I have decided to completely stay out of that section of the forum -- there is no longer any advantage to having it . I think they should just get rid of it -- at this point it isn't any better than ebay.

[colterphoto1]

If asked, off the Garage Sale, I'll offer my somewhat experienced opinion. If something is offered for sale I try not to place any judgements or opinions. For Sale is just that - buy or not buy, ask questions of the seller if you will. Other outside opinions are not helpful.

[MikeFord]

Pricing is a touchy issue in all fan forums. What I try to do is give as accurate an answer as I can from the point of view of a buyer without pretense of balance.

OTOH on rare occasions I sometimes know when to keep my mouth shut.

[Daddy Dee]

I've given a little thought to this. I've received some helpful advice on price from the shared knowlege base of the forum and would hesitate to say it shouldn't be offered. At the same time, as Gil and others have articulated, the question of a fair price is both subjective and with considerable complex considerations. A substantial grain of salt disclaimer should be assumed and offered in such discussions.

unsolicited advice should be offered with thought to hospitality, i think.

folks who overprice offerings on the forum should perhaps just be allowed to not close a sale if there is no sale to be closed. I add ebay to my watch list all the time just for the sake of entertainment. I don't take offense because someone over-prices their gear on the forum because they don't understand the market.

even if 90% of the garage sale forum is crap, let it be crap. no skin off our nose, really. it's nice to have out there for transactions between forum members who will treat each other well. If someone is out of line on asking prices, it's fine to make a reasonable offer. Up to the seller to accept or counter. Leave it at that. I think seasoned forum folks can manage that and be hospitable about it .

just some food for thought here.

[Boxx]

even if 90% of the garage sale forum is crap, let it be crap. no skin off our nose, really. it's nice to have out there for transactions between forum members who will treat each other well. If someone is out of line on asking prices, it's fine to make a reasonable offer. Up to the seller to accept or counter. Leave it at that. I think seasoned forum folks can manage that and be hospitable about it . just some food for thought here.

Dee, I could not agree with you more... [Y]

[Deang]

Back when we sold on 2-channel, you thought long and hard on your price. You did a little homework too. Trying to take advantage would have found you run out of town and relegated to General Forum as punishment for the crime. you're right though Dee, you don't punish the good for what the bad do.

[Fjd]

Back when we sold on 2-channel, you thought long and hard on your price. You did a little homework too. Trying to take advantage would have found you run out of town and relegated to General Forum as punishment for the crime. you're right though Dee, you don't punish the good for what the bad do.

+1 No easy answers. I
know that I’ve wrote about the potential for declining “empathy” on the
internet in relation to a specific 'garage sale' thread; however, there is also a very strong “sense of
community” that often develops as many of us tend to develop a feeling of
belonging with a common interest in audio, in general, and Klipsch, more
specifically. The feeling may grow in
the direction that members matter to one another, individual members may ultimately
matter to the group as a whole. Here is
where we see many instances of the “pay it forward” mentality where many
members will jump at the chance to help a fellow member in need.

Now what happens in this community when there
is a perceived threat to our own individual fundamental values that we place on
this community? Typically, we start
reading a lot of controversial posts on both sides of an argument and subsequent differences of opinion come
through. That’s life, we'll never change that.

I believe that many of us tend to "react" when we see a seller
come on the board and state (rhetorically, this is what we hear) “I could get this really high dollar amount on eBay, so I’ll knock off a
couple of dollars that I won’t have to pay to eBay for fees,” like they are making a huge sacrifice and doing us a favor, for which that statement
can be perceived as a threat to our community, by many of us.

Now take into account that many of us on this forum, are foremost, listeners of music with an appreciation of great gear (such as Klipsch) that can reproduce that music, and not necessarily "naive, neurotic collectors" that 'jump' and blindly pay a premium price on an item, we have a fundamental clash in perceived community values.

Obviously, certain sellers do not take the time to understand their target market when setting a price on this forum. While I'm sure that some sellers just do not do their homework, I suspect that some do just believe that we are only a "bunch of naive, neurotic collectors." For the most part, while mistakes are made by all at one time or another, the debates appear to do a good job of rooting out the later.

I had a car salesman, trying to sell me a Camry, tell me that the Camry was "unique" and was a "one-of-a-kind" car/experience. My response was, "how could that be when the car was the number one seller for several years in a row and you see them used on lots everywhere?" "Did you bother to look and see the Mach One Mustang that I drove up in? That is more of a unique driving experience than a Camry"...... He didn't take the time to understand my needs and realize that I just needed an everyday, reliable work car.....That aspect would have sold me, and since it was never presented, I went somewhere else.

As Dean seems to have implied, we don’t really expect to have someone just giving
us something for nothing, but in our community, there is a certain amount of “community goodwill”
where, if we want a reasonable well-thought-out price and don’t plan to squeeze every last possible penny out of an item,
we sell to each other; otherwise, if every last possible penny is the main goal, we
just list somewhere else without the cross-reference here. Note that I see this all the time and have
purchased directly from members through the board and have purchased from
members through other avenues when no reference of the item was made here.

Now consider that the fundamental problem (or
flaw) with eBay when referencing those selling prices as fair value, is that an eBay selling price
does NOT necessarily establish fair value of an item.

Here is a simplified example.

An item is
listed on eBay. Let’s call it “SET amp.”

Three people show interest in the SET amp and bid as follows;

$100 by Bidder 1

$80
by Bidder 2

$20 by Bidder 3

Auction closes and Bidder 1 wins the SET amp at
$81.

Is $100 the market value of the SET amp since that was the top bid of
Bidder 1?

Is $81 the market value since that is what the SET amp sold at?

Now,
two days later, we see another identical SET amp listed, but Bidder 1 is out of the running by already purchasing the ultimate SET amp two days earlier (and family pressures will not allow Bidder 1 to be a hoarder).

$80 by Bidder 2

$20 by Bidder 3

Auction closes and Bidder 2 wins the SET amp at
$21.

Is $100 the market value since we had Bidder 1 make that bid in the past?

Is
$80 the market value since that is what Bidder 2 was still willing to bid?

Is
$21 NOW the true market value since that is what the SET amp sold for?

I don't buy into the notion that eBay is a fair evaluation of fair market value as eBay appears to me to be more of a function of how many bidders are interested in an item over a specific period of time and bids are more dependent on specific individual internal needs and wants, financial situation, awareness or lack of awareness on product availability, time of year, etc. I also believe that any creditable analysis will throw out the high and low outliers.

Many times when I take the time to sort through the "noise" in the threads, I come away with valuable information and insight. In this instance, I believe that patience
and research on both sides can lead to a “win-win” transaction for both parties involved.

Now to go find that $21 SET amp.[:|]

[Taz]

I have at times sent personal message or email to party. Give my own example of my own situation and let them make their own judgement from there. They still have to call their own shots and may or may not benefit from my limited experince., , , ,,, ,,,,Taz

[jacksonbart]

This thread is worth $134.82

[Mongo171]

This thread is worth $134.82

I wouldn't pay that much for this thread!

[Boxx]

This thread is worth $134.82

I wouldn't pay that much for this thread!

Would you be willing to trade? lol

[JL Sargent]

For small fragment of time and for a given number of people, Ebay does indeed give you the fair market value of an item. Change either and the value changes.

[Fjd]

For small fragment of time and for a given number of people, Ebay does indeed give you the fair market value of an item. Change either and the value changes.

Actually, you are very close to my point that I was trying to make (but failed?) in that eBay gives you an "eBay market value" based on numerous factors, but not necessarily a "Klipsch forum" market value, nor a "Polk forum" market value, nor a "DIY Audio" forum market value, nor what an item would sell for at Parts Express, etc. In general, I believe that advertising and setting a price in a certain "target market" tends to take some understanding of that target market and the price elasticity of that specific target market, otherwise we see all the different views of our forum members come out as posts. I'm always amazed at how currently produced items can sell on eBay for hundreds of dollars more than if a person buys the exact same item in a retail store or Amazon. I still think Dean nailed it with the statement of "you did a little homework too." []

[Rhetor]

Coming to a forum for advice is a great place to get a little more info. I certainly would have overpaid for items small and on numerous occasions or offended someone unecessarily by lowballing by ignorance without "doing a little homework" by getting extra (beyond eBay) price advice on this and other forums (like CVOharley.com and HDforums.com). That is what forums are for, sharing collective wisdom. When it comes to price, if a seller asks for advice, and you want to give it, why not? If it is an item is out there in the physical world or www, and NOT posted for sale on the forum by a form member, and a potential buyer asks for price advice, why not give it if you want to answer request for price advice? But if it is posted for sale by the owner here, it is just not appropriate or fair to a fellow forum member to advice on their price . . . too high or too low . . . when the seller is not asking for public advice. Sure, you may want to advise a fellow forum member if they are your friend and you think the forum member owner's price is too high . . . in a PM or email, privately. Just not fair to cap on a forum member's sale price . . . If it is too high, they will learn that when nobody buys . . . If it is too low, that will find that out even faster. But advice on valuation on a forum member's sale when they have not asked for it? Doing so is not a forum member friendly practice . . . Nor, well, polite. While I am on this, isn't the "Alert" section for non-member sale postings, and "For members posting FS or WTB? Am I the only one seeing a lot of third party, non-member sale alerts posted in Garage sales instead of Alerts? If there is going to be no functional difference, why have two different sections. I have been helped by great advice on price from knowlegeable members here on both potential purchases and on a few things I have sold . . . When I asked for advice. I hope that kind of advice still comes in, since aI do not have the time to be my own Kelly Blue Book for,pre-owned electronics. I have to work so I have enough to buy some of those vintage electronics. :-). We are all big boys and girls on here. My rule of thumb, consider giving price advice if a fellow member asks, as long as it does not interfere with a fellow member's sale, and if aI really know a solid answer. I see some price advice given by persons who want to add to their post count without any real knowledge. Thanks to all of those,who have helped me figure out fair prices to both buy and to sell on this forum! And thanks to those who did not jump on my sale post to give unasked for advice when I started my sale price too high . . . I learned their fair market value when I kept reducing the price and the speakers sold. And a special thanks to forum members who sell here first before running to eBay, knowing they might get a little less, but when sold to a forum member, it usually goes to someone who will really appreciate it! This is a great online community, with only a few fully dysfunctional family members, but even they make the family interesting. Shoot, I might just be one of them! :-)

[mustang guy]

I am a person who tries to do the right thing for the right reason no matter what the cost. Sometimes it is hard to know what the right thing is. I'm not one to sit quietly, or as some say, lurk the forum. I do think of this forum as a family, and I know it is right to help family, and to avoid hurting them intentionally. My rules for giving value advice are loosely:

1. Is somebody about to get ripped off? Family or not, I'm gonna say something publically. I will not stand by and let anybody get hurt due innocence. Rescuing people from mistakes like this draws them into the Klipsch family. Being part of a conspiracy to take advantage of people repels them.
2. Could a valuation drive the market price lower thereby hurting all Klipsch collectors?
3. Is a regular member of the forum likely to be the lister?
4. Will I get yelled at? As they say "no good deed ever gets unpunished". []

That's pretty much been my philosophy regarding the value opinions I have posted. I will say that I have become more guarded as I have been here longer. I very much care how others in this forum are affected by my posts. Perhaps this post is offending some. I sure hope not.

Make it a good day,

Craig