Which do you perfer, Good midbass or low bass subs for HT/music

[derrickdj1]

I see members with a wide array of subwoofers in their HT/music system. I use my system for both movies and music. It seem that we discuss musical vs HT subs quiet a bit over the last several months. I am more into music than movies just because there is more of it out there without watching re-runs. I perfer good midbass performance more than the ultra low stuff. I know the ultra low stuff is great for movies so, in a dual system, what is your preference?

[twistedcrankcammer]

I see members with a wide array of subwoofers in their HT/music system. I use my system for both movies and music. It seem that we discuss musical vs HT subs quiet a bit over the last several months. I am more into music than movies just because there is more of it out there without watching re-runs. I perfer good midbass performance more than the ultra low stuff. I know the ultra low stuff is great for movies so, in a dual system, what is your preference?

I have two Klipsch KPT-684 subs for mid Bass and two Velodyne HGS-18II Subs for Low Bass.

Roger

[Knorbu]

I am ordering a new PSA xv-15 this weekend , hopefully that will give me a chance to see which I prefer. I currently have a sub-12 with my rf-83's, it isn't quite cutting the mustard...although the 83's sound pretty nice when set on large....

Mark

[willland]

I perfer good midbass performance more than the ultra low stuff.

For music, absolutely. The kick in the chest from a kick drum is awesome, punchy and rhythmic.

I know the ultra low stuff is great for movies so, in a dual system, what is your preference?

While my Revel B15 can handle the midbass as well as or better than most subs out there, I mainly use it for sub 40Hz duty. My RSW-10d is one musical subwoofer and it really shines in the 40Hz--80Hz region.

Bill

[Chris A]

It seems that we discuss musical vs. HT subs quite a bit over the last several months. I am more into music than movies just because there is more of it out there without watching re-runs. I prefer good midbass performance more than the ultra low stuff. I know the ultra low stuff is great for movies so, in a dual system, what is your preference

I believe that you are the first person on this forum in recent memory to actually ask a question on this subject, rather than to express a hard-and-fast position. Having said that, it seems to me that we typically treat subs as some sort of "extra" to our sound reproduction systems, and I believe that is actually a source of problems.

 

I feel that sound reproduction systems should do just that: reproduce sound faithfully to our recordings - adding and deleting nothing, changing nothing (except an occasional re-EQing if the mastering engineer did a really poor job), minimizing the effects of room acoustics in order to bring some semblance of a virtual "soundstage" mimicking the original recording space introduced by the recording, mixing, and mastering engineers, but in our listening environment. However, I've found that this is a surprisingly controversial statement.

If you can still stay with this idea, then it becomes natural that subwoofers are meant to extend that portion of the reproduced audio spectrum that is typically ignored by most loudspeaker manufacturers - because "they can get away with not reproducing it". If you tried to extended that concept into the HF end of the spectrum, how many people would buy loudspeakers that stop reproducing at 10KHz? If everyone in your household is over 70 and male, you might be able to get away with that. However, I find that I always miss the frequencies below, let's say, 32 Hz for the sake of argument (since that is the -3dB point of Khorns in good corners, and PWK designed them to ignore the last octave of sensible LF spectrum).

Now that I've got everything dialed in, I always leave my horn-loaded subs (TH SPUD designs) on unless listening to old recordings that have really bad infrasonic noise on them since I can easily hear/feel that noise on my setup. The subs cover the bandpass of 17-40 Hz (-3 dB points). There are few recordings that I listen to that don't have information in that frequency band, and when it is not there being reproduced, I hear that omission, and it's not pleasant that it's not there.

Now the caveats:

1) My listening space is large enough to hear those frequencies naturally (the lowest room mode is about 11 Hz), and a Schroeder frequency of 100 Hz.

2) My setup is EQed pretty well down to 17 Hz, +/- 2 dB at my listening position - many folks without AVPs/AVRs do not perform this step and typically listen to the "humps" in LF performance, particularly with Khorns, La Scalas, Belles, Jubs and MWMs - all of which are horn loaded bass bins.

3) I use horn-loaded subs and bass bins having very low modulation distortion as compared to most direct radiator woofers and subwoofers.

4) I listen to a lot of acoustically recorded music, such as orchestras, bands, jazz combos, and other non-pop, non-metal sources. All these types of music have information below 32 Hz as part of their "musical content".

So the term "music sub" has absolutely no meaning to me. Also, I do not understand why someone would not want to have a full range sound reproduction system all the time if they can afford it and have spent a little time and effort to achieve it in their listening room.

Now the subject of LFE on movies: in my listening room, I've found that the LFE channel impressed on these disks is about 10dB© too loud on videos, so I use my AVP to reduce these "special signals" (mostly sound effects) by about 10dB since my setup has essentially flat response all the way down to 17 Hz (with headroom to spare). I'm a real happy camper for all sources of music now: just plunk the disk into the disk player.

For vinyl, there are some real problems with some otherwise okay recordings, and those records typically have warps or just badly filtered infrasonic noise impressed into the original recording. I have a switch on my remote that allows me to easily switch the subs off if I hear any problems with those recordings. But I don't often listen to vinyl much more than one disk per month, at most. And I listen to mostly classical and jazz records that are slightly higher quality recordings that are mostly free of these issues. So I use that "subwoofer off" switch maybe a half dozen times per year at most, and this seems to be getting less and less often as I replace most of my old records that I listen to often with their CD, SACD, and DVD-A counterparts.

Chris

Edited September 3, 2015 by Chris A

[CECAA850]

I agree with Chris (I think!). Accurate reproduction is what you're after. You don't want a sub that excells with music or HT. You want a sub that excells with music and HT. You want a sub that can accurately reproduce what's on your media regardless of what that is.

[Youthman]

You want a sub that can accurately reproduce what's on your media regardless of what that is.

You know I have always heard that statement but here is my honest question.....how do we know what "accurate" is supposed to sound like? I mean think about it? The desire is to hear the sound exactly as the audio engineers recorded it but we don't have their setup, their speakers, their acoustics, their ears. So how can we even know if what we are hearing is "accurate" if we don't have anything to base what "accurate" should sound like?

[CECAA850]

You want a sub that can accurately reproduce what's on your media regardless of what that is.

You know I have always heard that statement but here is my honest question.....how do we know what "accurate" is supposed to sound like? I mean think about it? The desire is to hear the sound exactly as the audio engineers recorded it but we don't have their setup, their speakers, their acoustics, their ears. So how can we even know if what we are hearing is "accurate" if we don't have anything to base what "accurate" should sound like?

I'll use things like a kick drum, bass guitar, gunshot, organ, diesel engine, etc to base my opinion of accurate. Basically if I know what it sounds like in real life, I know what it should sound like on my system.

EDIT, I've never felt a dinosaur stomp, but I think I know what one should feel like. If all known bass sources are accurate, the ones I'm not familiar with SHOULD be accurate too.

[Chris A]

how do we know what "accurate" is supposed to sound like? I mean think about it? The desire is to hear the sound exactly as the audio engineers recorded it but we don't have their setup, their speakers, their acoustics, their ears. So how can we even know if what we are hearing is "accurate" if we don't have anything to base what "accurate" should sound like?

This is precisely why I stated that "accurate reproduction" (a subject that PWK worked on with his speakers and wrote about all his adult life) is a surprisingly controversial subject.

When it comes to LF reproduction, except for near-field effects, I believe that it is easy to identify "accuracy" - since many/most mixing and mastering studios hire professionals to stock up and dial-in their listening rooms to hear/feel LF bands. I don't know of many studios nowadays that would advertise that they don't have full-range sound reproduction including infrasonic frequencies and room acoustics to hear all aural bands in a balanced way (except those studios advertising that they still use NS-10M and other poor nearfield monitors--and whose resulting disks I typically avoid buying).

What I see is that there is a tendency to excuse oneself from achieving accuracy after attempting to poke holes in the concept of accuracy, and then go off and do whatever one wants to do. My suggestion, just like PWK's, is that one shouldn't call sound reproduction systems "hi-fi" if they don't reproduce all aural bands in an accurate manner, "house curves" notwithstanding. I also believe that we have THX in theaters because of this tendency to excuse oneself because "it's too hard".

In the documentary Side by Side, several big name film directors and directors of photography are just appalled by the lack of QC in the reproduction of their films, to the point that they show highly emotional and negative reactions to the subject being brought up. Their one area of common praise: the deployment of digital movie projectors across the industry, and by reference, THX-compliant theaters. They care about accuracy - and so do I, to the degree that I can achieve it in my listening/viewing space. Not all people do however.

Chris

[Youthman]

Mark, I think you will love a 15" sub with the RF-83's. I went from a Velodyne CT-100 (10" with 100 watt amp) to a Velodyne F-1500 (15" with 250 watt amp) to a Velodyne HGS15 (15" with 1250 watt amp) to my current Klipsch RSW-15 (15" Active & 15" Passive with 750 watt amp). The 15's are so impactful, especially for HT. []

[Youthman]

I'll use things like a kick drum, bass guitar, gunshot, organ, diesel engine, etc to base my opinion of accurate. Basically if I know what it sounds like in real life, I know what it should sound like on my system.

That makes sense.

I've never felt a dinosaur stomp, but I think I know what one should feel like.

I guess that's where my ears just aren't that critical. I just know if I like the way it sounds or not. []

[Knorbu]

Mark, I think you will love a 15" sub with the RF-83's. I went from a Velodyne CT-100 (10" with 100 watt amp) to a Velodyne F-1500 (15" with 250 watt amp) to a Velodyne HGS15 (15" with 1250 watt amp) to my current Klipsch RSW-15 (15" Active & 15" Passive with 750 watt amp). The 15's are so impactful, especially for HT.

I am pretty excited about getting the sub, it's got to be an improvement..

However,,,, I might have to put a delay on ordering it now,, I got home from work and the Mrs told me the doctor recommended some out patient surgery for her ....we'll see how things pan out. Sorry to get off topic Derrick

Mark

[Mongo171]

I listened to some music today as well as watched a couple of movies. I have to say that the PC13-Ultra is a good sub for both. YMMV.

[Rivernuggets]

Don't have a preference really. Both have their place and are great fun. If the movie or song calls for one or both, I want to have a good system to hear it. I guess I'm agreeing with Chris in layman's terms.

My listening space is large enough to hear those frequencies naturally (the lowest room mode is about 11 Hz), and a Schroeder frequency of 125 Hz

Had to look up Schroeder frequency, and found this article. I hope it's description is accurate because it made good sense to me. This isn't too much of a hijack....it's related to mid/low bass. []

[Vital]

I see members with a wide array of subwoofers in their HT/music system. I use my system for both movies and music. It seem that we discuss musical vs HT subs quiet a bit over the last several months. I am more into music than movies just because there is more of it out there without watching re-runs. I perfer good midbass performance more than the ultra low stuff. I know the ultra low stuff is great for movies so, in a dual system, what is your preference?

Those were my exact thoughts when I was shopping for a sub for my room. I did a ton of research before I bought and I knew I was giving up a little of the bottom feeding for a very musical sealed sub. If you look at the sub shootouts on AVS, the Epik Empire actually had the most kick in the chest when listening to music according to one listener. It still digs down below 15 HZ which is enough for me and my HT needs. I wanted the most musical sub that could hold it's own in a HT room and I got exactly what I was looking for IMHO. It's like anything, you have to find out what is the most important to you in your room and go from there. Lot's of good options out there it just depends on your budget and wants/needs.

[derrickdj1]

w

I believe that you are the first person on this forum in recent memory to actually ask a question on this subject, rather than to express a hard-and-fast position.

Thanks Chris, in an ideal world we would like a sub to do music and HT very well, In reality, some subs don't do well over 60 Hz and some do. Dr. Geddes said that floor standing speaker don't do well with room modes lower than 60-80 Hz no matter how good the speakers are and subs are needed to help reproduce the lower frequencies accurately or as near accurate as our rooms and equipment will allow.

Youthman and CECAA850 brought up a good point, what is accurate. I also use the kickdrum, snare drum and cympals to judge accuracy.

I think someone mention not enjoying the feeling of some infrasonic with certain music. I am in the same camp when it comes to some music.

It is hard to say I am a midbass man or infrasonic man because in a dual system we have to be happy with the subs doing double duty. If all you want is infrasonic and output, buy one big 18 in sub with a big amp. If you use the sub also for music then sub selection is a little harder due to the desire to get a smoother frequency in room respone and going for accuray.

[Quiet_Hollow]

Derrick & Chris, you both hit it right on the nail head. Well said![Y]

I've been around the block with subs, and have made a point listen to the top-tier products in all the myriad of alignments and applications (concert, cinema, home, specialty SFX).

The correct sub for the intended pass band, deployed correctly, will sound convincingly "real".

If you've heard distant thunder, a passing train, or a door closing...your ears are already quite familiar with authentic sub bass.

My preference is for "real", and my choice in subwoofer design reflects that.

[CECAA850]

My preference is for "real", and my choice in subwoofer design reflects that.

My name is Carl and I endorse this message.[Y]

[MichaelandKlipsch]

I am much more of a HT person having a love for film in general. Was supposed to go into filmmaking and ended up becoming an accountant anyway. I really loved my RSW 10dwhen I was more into music. It was extremely powerful but created some wonderful musical bass. In most situations I think I prefer music now without a sub and or on larger horn loaded tower speakers. As I have stated in numerous posts Im completely in love with my 4 THX KW-120s and 2 KA-1000s. They deliver the deepest lowest bass that new film soundtracks and LFEs produce on bluray discs. I prefer them over my old dual SVS ultra 13s.

[derrickdj1]

Carl was the first one to mention the kick drum which is a useful metric that everyone can use. I hear the term speaker accuracy tossed about on various forums and most of the people have no ideal what they are talking about, lol.[8-)]