Ten Years have flown by.

[Zen Traveler]

If I were writing a book or an essay then of course I would not use emoticons

Why not?

My purpose would be different. AFAIK...Wait, in case you don't understand that--As far as I know, people don't come to this forum to read anything resembling a novel or essay and those that do would probably be doing so instead of posting in this thread.

I find it remarkable you can't tell the difference and take several paragraphs to explain it.

Dave

He doesn't understand his audience and appears to be writing for himself in preparation for that great novel he is considering. {Note: No emoticon added because I am not really sure what your purpose is here and I don't wish to offend you even though I find humor in this situation.}

[Mallette]

I find it remarkable that you think I said I couldn't tell the difference. I didn't say that.

I read your analysis. Complete BS in the real world. I don't know almost anyone who doesn't use the real world version of this particular emoticon application around those they know well. I shouldn't have to explain that if somebody says to me at work "Mallette, you TURD!" with a real smiley face I take it as a compliment. With and angry, red face, not so much.

Emoticons add to the language. Our phonetic language has many advantage over hieroglyphs or Chinese, but it lacks their built-in emoticons a great deal of the expressive nature that can come only from symbols.

Symbolic expression has greatly enriched our language, whether you like it or not. Those who use it poorly generally don't use the pure form well to begin with. And I don't mean you. Instead of a simple, clear, and readily understood emoticon you'll write an entire paragraph to same the same thing.

Dave

[Mallette]

{Note: No emoticon added because I am not really sure what your purpose is here and I don't wish to offend you even though I find humor in this situation.

Redundant for that sentence. But I can see it in my head...

Dave

[Zen Traveler]

I read your analysis. Complete BS in the real world. I don't know almost anyone who doesn't use the real world version of this particular emoticon application around those they know well. I shouldn't have to explain that if somebody says to me at work "Mallette, you TURD!" with a real smiley face I take it as a compliment. With and angry, red face, not so much.

Emoticons add to the language. Our phonetic language has many advantage over hieroglyphs or Chinese, but it lacks their built-in emoticons a great deal of the expressive nature that can come only from symbols.

Symbolic expression has greatly enriched our language, whether you like it or not. Those who use it poorly generally don't use the pure form well to begin with. And I don't mean you. Instead of a simple, clear, and readily understood emoticon you'll write an entire paragraph to same the same thing.

I agree and mark hasn't realized his verbose use of language actually turns alot of people off of his posts...That said, If I were a real glutton for punishment would ask what his opinion of using Italics and bold are worth in the written word, but I don't give a shit. [] {Okay...Guilty as stated as to the use of this emoticon.}

[Zen Traveler]

My purpose would be different. AFAIK...Wait, in case you don't understand that--As far as I know, people don't come to this forum to read anything resembling a novel or essay and those that do would probably be doing so instead of posting in this thread.

What are novels about? Human relations.

Everything in Life isn't a Novel....Some people don't even read and maintain Human relations...That said, Movies, TV shows etc, are also about Human relations, not to mention Paintings and Drawing which also convey things that don't need the written word...For the record, I agree all of those idiotic GIFs in the other thread were distracting, but don't throw out the baby with the bath water when it comes to effective communication.

[Zen Traveler]

{Note: No emoticon added because I am not really sure what your purpose is here and I don't wish to offend you even though I find humor in this situation.

Redundant for that sentence. But I can see it in my head...

Dave

I apologize, but I actually did type too fast and meant those words for Mark..What I should've said was "I am not really sure what his purpose is here and I don't wish to offend him even though I find humor in this situation. {Note: I was frustrated with my computer freezing up which was a situation that Hemingway didn't have a problem with plus he had an editor. [co]}

[Mallette]

I apologize, but I actually did type too fast and meant those words for Mark..

I knew that. My response was intended to reflect what you said. Perhaps I'd have been more nearly clear if I'd employed an emoticon. []

Dave

[Mallette]

I just don't see it used anywhere but on forums and Internet venues. I don't see serious writers using it to enhance their writing. Is it a convenient shorthand? Sure. But that's about it. What you gain in time, you lose in nuance. It is greatly enhanced writing, great writers would be using it - full stop - end of story.

Well, when writing was first invented you didn't see hardly anybody using it. Give it time. Lots of colloquialisms of a couple of centuries ago now in use by formal writers, including yourself.

Mark Twain said it best "Why should I write "metropolis" when I can get 7 cents for city?"

Dave

[skonopa]

My purpose would be different. AFAIK...Wait, in case you don't understand that--As far as I know, people don't come to this forum to read anything resembling a novel or essay and those that do would probably be doing so instead of posting in this thread.

What are novels about? Human relations.

What happens on this forum? Human relations.

Should we be less careful in the second case than in the first?

I was reading through all this and I cannot help but find this whole argument to be completely rediculous.

Yes, novels and essays are about human relations. However, in the case of a novel, the author is attempting to paint a story in ones mind. They are going to use language to setup the scene, the characters and the like to get a picture in the reader's mind. Once that is established for the reader, the reader should be able to know the characters well enough to be able to read from the context of the story and the setting at hand the emotions the characters are displaying. So, of course smileys/emoticons/what-have-ya, is not appropriate for such discourse. However, that does not mean that emoticons cannot be used in novels, especially if that is the type of communication the author wants to convey for the reader (i.e, conveying a conversation occuring over a computer link in the context of the story at hand).

In the case of essays/whitepapers (and I've written plenty of those), the author is often attempting to explain some (usually complex) topic in a very formal and serious way. If any emoticons are used there, it is purely for illustrative purposes (for example, an essay on the emoticons themselves, and there are plenty - just google "emoticon").

However, I liken this forum as a more informal, conversational type of interaction, much like shooting the breeze around the water cooler/coffee pot at work, or while sharing a few drinks at the bar in the evening. As was already pointed out, it is not always easy to get the emotion of what the person posting is trying to convey, so throwing a smiley in her and there helps bring levity to the conversation and helps convey the emotion. For example, I am not going to explain to my co-worker/friend/brother/etc how I am feeling everytime I walk into a room, unlike an author would have to do in a novel to setup a scene for the reader. They should be able to get that from my body language and facial expressions. We don't have that luxury in a textual forum such as this, so the emoticons and even sometimes the cheesy cartoons are used to convey such in an immediate and concise way.

I am not here wanting read or write a novel or essay, I want to come here to socialize with some friends and perhaps learn a bit about audio and/or some good music to check out.

Now, sometimes when there is a "newbie" on here needing an explaination of how something works or how to get something setup to work the way they want, then I am more inclinded to go into "essay mode" and attempt to explain that topic in a more formal and serious way (but not so formal as to bore the poor guy).

[Zen Traveler]

You know as well as I do that Americans are not readers any longer. So sure, a guy who writes two paragraphs is going to be considered some out of bounds elitist. Well, that's who I am, so that's what you are going to get. But know this...it is at least authentic - no yellow button required on my part.

I agree that we don't see eye-to-eye on this but not every person who writes two paragraphs (or more) is considered an "out of bounds elitist." We both know how quite a few people view you, but I will state for the record I don't think you are "an elitist dick." You and I have had many conversations in which I've enjoyed and held my own. Now, THIS will be my last post on the topic for the reasons you stated.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

You should do a project and marry them properly with improved caps, line cords, interconnects, tubes, LOMC. You'd be a star! I am sure you have read this, right?

Mark, I hate to jump into this, but you do realize that the review you linked used Hotel California for their review...

[Zen Traveler]

I was reading through all this and I cannot help but find this whole argument to be completely rediculous.

However, I liken this forum as a more informal, conversational type of interaction, much like shooting the breeze around the water cooler/coffee pot at work, or while sharing a few drinks at the bar in the evening...

I am not here wanting read or write a novel or essay, I want to come here to socialize with some friends and perhaps learn a bit about audio and/or some good music to check out.

Hey skonopa! You are one of a handful of people I've met on this Forum and I want to say it was alot of fun hangin' out with you in Indianapolis. I hope all is well. [C] [H]

[skonopa]

Hey skonopa! You are one of a handful of people I've met on this Forum and I want to say it was alot of fun hangin' out with you in Indianapolis. I hope all is well.

I am doing well, especially after having undergone knee surgury last year due to blowing an ACL out while skiing the previous winter.

I pretty much spend most of my time in these forums up in the "right this minute" section, or occasionally cruising the "general questions", the "home theater" and here. Especially as I am more into the music than the actual gear itself now-a-days.

But, yeah, that was cool getting to hang-out with you in Indy. Was hoping for another pilgrimage in Indy, as Hope is just to much of a PITA for me to get to and just don't want to bother anymore.

[mustang guy]

In the contest of communications, emoticons are exactly like chili powder. A little bit goes a very long way. One of the dimensions in writing that make it stimulating is style. Style is a wonderful core of the written word. Reading Vonnegut is not like reading Melville. Thank Uranus for small things! Without style, writing is pabulum. Style gives it motion, emotion and meaning. It provides the core of individualism. Remove the style and you remove the person.

What are emoticons? A pre-packaged infantile style book ready to employ. Imagine a Fisher-Price game for 2 year olds. Little colored blocks that go in little colored holes. Everyone uses the same set, over and over. And therefore, everyone comes over as the same style. Flat, silly, boring and childish with no personality. The more emoticons you employ, the more lifeless your writing becomes. It looks lazy, bot-like, and empty, contrary to the colorful look. Uh, colored text is not colorful language folks.

Take it just a bit further than it is now. Pull up a box with all the pithy sayings possible represented by a little glyph. You select three or four glyphs and hit POST. Yeah, that's going to be real interesting to pour over isn't it? Each guy saying the exact same few pithy remarks, maybe in a different order. wowie -- can't wait to read that.

Emoticons reduce the chance of misunderstanding that anybody can understand regardless of intellect or even language. Emoticons save time in circumstances where the author is in a hurry to post a message. Insinuating they are childish is manipulative. They have value, and they have become part of the human language and bridge all language barriers. I find overuse as annoying as the next guy, but I can tolerate thoughtful use. I don't guess I have much of a choice. []

[Mallette]

Today, we'd know how to answer him. Los Angeles is a metropolis, Eureka is a city.

You probably would, as you don't appear to understand his point. In my case, I am not prepared to correct Mark Twain on writing...especially on a point so universally true.

Dave

[tigerwoodKhorns]

You should do a project and marry them properly with improved caps, line cords, interconnects, tubes, LOMC. You'd be a star! I am sure you have read this, right?

Mark, I hate to jump into this, but you do realize that the review you linked used Hotel California for their review...

Everyone has a few faults. Even people who love the Tercel.

A great philosopher once had similar insight into the work of the Eagles. We all know who he is so no need to mention. (EDIT - not referring to a forum member here, just a great philosopher).

[thebes]

Dave, Dave. I love this place and I love it when Mark drops down from the Olympus of his mind to share with us mere mortals his thoughts and dreams, opinions and scolds, his genius and his disingenuous.

Good onya' Marty. You're on the old Friday night roll. Be funny if I spelled it "role" wouldn't it?

Hey Mark, I must say I'm flattered. Didn't realize that anyone had caught onto the purpose of what I used to call my "Friday Night Follies" . Actually it was great fun until most of the Forum decided they'd rather post during their workweek and ignore this place on weekends.

[NOSValves]

It was a wild and wooly place back then. It's an established, gentile neighborhood now. "Newbies" back then often didn't make it through the gauntlet. Parrot and Mobilehomeless...and others...could smell fresh meat for miles.

I miss some aspects of it, but since Sheriff Amy cleaned up the joint and made everyone check their pieces at login I guess it's generally better.

Dave

Dave,

While I will agree the place is much more civil then it was back in the wild west days, I think the information available has been watered down. Many of the most knowledgeable/experienced/interesting audio folks retreated into a hidden world of political debate which ended up with many disappearing all together. Many folks that considered themselves friends now despise each other.

[NOSValves]

Oh and let me add that I don't blame Amy or Klipsch for doing what they have done no way could have it went on the way it was.....I just would have done it differently

PS: man posting from a smart phone makes my craigsspeak worse then normal and I didn't think that was possible []

[Mallette]

Dave,
While I will agree the place is much more civil then it was back in the wild west days, I think the information available has been watered down. Many of the most knowledgeable/experienced/interesting audio folks retreated into a hidden world of political debate which ended up with many disappearing all together. Many folks that considered themselves friends now despise each other.

It's hard for me to tell whether the expertise level has fallen. Ten years of constant exposure to this fountain and I am pretty well settled on the greatest issues of the day. Not to say I am an "expert," but that isn't what I wanted. I got good input on my new room setup from some. Would have liked more, but I think the bases are covered.

I really don't know of anyone I truly despise here. For one thing, I am too imperfect a creature to make such a judgment, and for another I have inspired considerable hostility against myself on occasion without really knowing why or how.

Yep, there is arrogance, self-centering, "win at all costs," get XXXX, and such...just like the real world. But I love this place, warts and all.

As to the governance, it's a fine line between repression and anarachy. This place isn't a public park, but a public offering by a private company...and yet it's a great place to be and I only visit others to follow links and such.

Dave