Considering a move back to 2 channel

[eq_shadimar]

You should be able to have both. The imaging requirement for the left and right main speakers is the same for multi channel or 2 channel. I have spent lots of time getting the imaging correct for my system.

My HK 510 has pre amp outputs for all of the channels so I run the front left and right line level outputs into my Fisher 500B tube amp. I use this setup for all music, movie, tv etc.. listening except for records. For records I just run the TT into the Fisher directly.

This gives me the best of both worlds. The Fisher acts as a tube power amp for all listening except for records and as a tube pre and power amp for records. This way I don't have to switch any cables or anything.

So if you plan correctly yu should be able to enjoy boht. I have a Pioneer 47a DVD player that supports both multi channel SACD and DVD-A. I don't claim t have "golden ears" but I do really enjoy the multi channel recordings that I have picked up so far.

Laters,

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...wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world...

My Home Theater Page

[dougdrake]

"It is behind my amps and there is no easy way to get at them without removing the amp from the cabinet."

JM - Where's the team spirit? Where's the ol' do-or-die attitude? What about that "whatever it takes in the name of audio nirvana" energy that is the backbone of this bulletin board? (LOL). Just kidding. Thanks for the input. I'll keep an eye out for something like that. And it is non-powered and non-switched (mechanically, anyway)? Very cool.

Thanks again.

Doug

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My System

[avman]

my first experiences w/klf-30's was in several different showroom environments that i had set them up in-always in 'surround sound'. never failed to impress. i also have been a 'music-in-stereo' purist(i DO get the sub involved by using 'a.f.d.'on my sony ES)and found that 99% of 2-ch.music i play that way (l,r + sub). when KLIPSCHOG asked if i could 'store' his klf-30's for a month until he made room for them, i set them up in a 2nd floor garage apartment i was renting. picture a long,relatively narrow apartment in what would usually be the garage attic. the walls angled in toward the ceiling starting at about 4 1/2 ft. from the floor. i set up the 30's on the long wall about 6ft.apart w/my 41"sony rptv between them and sat back from them about 7ft. WOW!!! IMAGING IS CRITICAL for 2-ch.sound and the BIG surprise: INCREDIBLE SURROUND EFFECTS FROM 2 SPEAKERS!! when i watched movies i heard things behind me,to the outside(by several feet)of the speakers, and voices on screen were nicely centered. HAD to have a pair of these!

now to my current set-up(check signature). enjoying dvd concerts in 5.1 surround has 'softened' my l,r+sub opinion as THE way to listen to music , but i STILL like 2-ch. music played this way. i have a SACD multi-ch. player, and like the format, but all of my sacd's except one are 2-ch.(hoping to find some more multi-ch.titles i'm interested in)and the 2-ch.sacd's don't involve the sub.

in conclusion: 2-channel music/movies on GREAT speakers, SET-UP PROPERLY IN THE RIGHT ENVIRONMENT, really do sound good;a great surround-sound system ALSO sounds good when played in 2-ch. or surround sound(music) when the program content lends itself to surround-sound playback(concert dvd's)IMHO.

avman.

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1-pair klf 30's

c-7 center

ksps-6 surrounds

RSW-15

sony strda-777ES receiver upgraded to v.2.02 including virtual matrix 6.1

sony playstation 2

sony dvpnc 650-v 5-disc dvd/cd/SACD changer

dishnetwork model 6000 HD sat rcvr w/digital off-air tuner

sony kv36xbr450 high-definition 4:3 tv

sharp xv-z1u lcd projector w/84" 4:3 sharp screen

Bello'international Italian-made a/v furniture

panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner

monster cable and nxg interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire

Natuzzi red leather furniture set

KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz!

[Mighty Favog]

Strange, my Mac C33 has two MM phono inputs and wish it only had one so I could use the other for something else. Guess back then I should have gotten the C34V. Although, now I have a hankerin' for a C40. Damn this hobby....

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Tom's Money Pit

[boa12]

whell-mike, i guess when i do 2-channel in 6 speaker & sub mode i lose that soundstage but works for me being surrounded by that fine audio including the corns then going full-range.

for 5.1 mixes i use the surround processing & hope the mixers did it right, such as w/ the eagles hfo 5.1 dts.

if the mix is that bad i may, but rearely, resort to stereo processing from just the front or again 6 speaker plus sub stereo.

for pure 2-channel w/ for that soundstage & imaging accuracy, i've set up my listening lounge w/ rf-3 in a seperate room/lounge. for cds & cassette, i use my marantz sr-8000 in direct mode to the 2 rf.

i also have my big dual power-supply 165Wx2 kenwood kr9600 1975 hog for use w/ those inputs as well as strictly for the turntable (my marantz doesn't do phono). i have a manual russound receiver a/b switch.

the ken has the higher power, but i find myself using the marantz more for that quite sufficient & warm stereo. & it has a great universal remote.

do have an rc-3 in the lounge between the rf, but rarely use it w/ use of the direct mode. found when i biwired the rf-3 it greatly improved the imaging & soundstage of the stereo speaks.

the great advantage for stereo listening in the lounge is that i can put the rf about 15 ft apart there. in the main room, i can get the klf-30 only about 6 ft apart in the front. so this is a special circumstance that may lead to my preferring 6 speaker/channel stereo for the 2-ch music material in the main room.

but w/ the performance of marantz for stereo w/ 2-channel material, i wouldn't think you'd need new equipment. just a flick of the switch & use of the pcm

stereo formats. or is this about what the industry is doing w/ mixes/formats of music material?

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My Home Systems Page

[boa12]

now to answer the real question . yes i do think my investment in my main sys gives me the flexibility to enjoy all the formats & mixes pretty well for all.

the question seems to depend on what one really uses. in my mains sys w/ the fronts only about 6 ft apart i can't really take advantage of true stereo listening.

so the 6 speaker & sub for the 2-channel or pcm works fine for me there.

w/ 5.1 material, so much depends on the mix job. i'd say many of the concert dvd & audio-only dvd do a pretty decent job of duplicating the concert experience

w/ most sound from the front & whatever soundstage i can get there, & from the rear, mostly reverb sound or an occasional instrument or voice gone astray.

but i've found having big speaks in the rear is great for HT & even some 5.1 music mixes when they put some lower bass in those channels. nice even room response from that low bass that compliments the low bass/lfe from the sub in front.

i do a lot of HT from the cable tv dig box. more & more on the movie channels are in DD 5.1. can't wait for that DPL II to get more of the above rear low bass effect from the majority of cable movies in DD 2.0.

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My Home Systems Page

This message has been edited by boa12 on 07-02-2002 at 03:42 PM

[BBB]

I was going to make a comment yesterday but BOA covered all the bases that I was going to touch. I basically do the same with my system as he does. It sounds great to me. Just my opinion.

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tHe wORLDs werst TYPesT>

[jdm56]

Hi everybody; klipschaholics and music lovers, et al!

Interesting thread, eh? To me, the main problem with surround music is the choices made by the re-mixers. Probably some pressure from the sales and marketing people, too. You know, gotta scream: SURROUND-O-SOUND! Totally unatural, gimmicky and tiresome. But, oh the possibilities! If they'd just DO IT RIGHT! Keep the music in front, use the surrounds for echo and reverb, and use that center channel to broaden the sweet spot. I really think that in time, common sense will prevail, and surround sound for tunes will succeed - er, at least I hope so.

One problem selling surround to audiophiles is that we already know about the sweet spot, and tend to stay in it. And as we all know, good recordings can produce uncanny surround type effects with just two li'l ol' channels IF you are in that sweet spot.

-my 2.6 cents worth.

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JDM

[Audible Nectar]

Boa basically took the words right out of my cybermouth, especially in his most recent post.

I don't regret building my system the way I have - if anything, it's a bit dated by today's fast paced changes in surround technologies. I have set up my system for formats that are widely available and cheap (economies of scale). IOW, I am not yet willing to go to DVD-A, SACD, or 6.1/7.1, since spending that extra money on formats that are limited in quantity of titles doesn't make sense in my "budget approach" to system building. I won't get the use out of these like I will with 5.1 and stereo sources.

That said, I do use the major features of my system, and I feel that the effort spent to select gear carefully has aided me in getting the most entertainment value for my dollar. I like the 2 channel sound as well - it's quite good for a pre/pro. If I had a choice to trade in my current setup for a 2 channel system like edster00's, for example - I am not sure that I could do it. Not after watching "The Matrix" and "The Last Waltz"

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Klipsch Cornwall II's (mains) - Klipsch Academy (center channel) - Klipsch Chorus (surrounds)

Krell Home Theater Standard processor - Outlaw 750 Amplifier (5x165)

Bass Kit: 2 JBL 4638 LFE/Bass Reinforcement cabinets - Crown CE 1000 amplifier - Behringer Feedback Destroyer (Bass EQ)

Sources: Pioneer DV-333 - 2 Aiwa ADF-850 3 head cassette decks - General Instruments cable box - Panasonic VHS PV-4459 - Digital Audio Labs CardDeluxe (computer sound)

f> c> s>

This message has been edited by dndphishin on 07-03-2002 at 12:16 AM

[boa12]

right on if you're going to do it all in one room I think a great prepro like dnd's krell, the act-3, my b&k ref 30 , etc make for a great overall system. iow, a great front stage for music. though i think marantz receivers are also excellent for stereo. mine has a real warm feel there w/ the rf-3.

also you get the upgradability to newer formats like DPLII & dts es 6.1 discrete, & flexible bass mgmt, in more cases w/ the pre/pro. add the high power amp to really push the big woofs & there you have it.

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My Home Systems Page

[boa12]

btw, maybe tubes some day, especially if i expand the heritage line-up. but these ss seem warm enough to me so far. then again i haven't heard tubes since a lux driving some cornwalls back in the 70s. seemed warm if i remember right.

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My Home Systems Page

[boa12]

& jd, if you're ever up around KC you'll have to stop in to hear & see Neil Young live at red rocks in 5.1 to hear the lack of geetars flying overhead. i've been known to also have a few beer in the cooler & a bottle of jd around too. feel free to shoot me an email & stop by if you have the time. i'm really having trouble finding people to hear the set-up. those that might really appreciate it that is.

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My Home Systems Page

[Jim Cornell]

Hey guys im slacking, my wife is enjoying the HT more than me, now i gotta catch up LOL!

We DO enjoy it afterall.

If i lost it i would miss it!

Regards Jim

[j-malotky]

JDM wrote:

One problem selling surround to audiophiles is that we already know about the sweet spot, and tend to stay in it. And as we all know, good recordings can produce uncanny surround type effects with just two li'l ol' channels IF you are in that sweet spot.

-my 2.6 cents worth.

James - That was worth a lot more than 2.6 cents. You hit the nail right on the head.

When you have a properly setup 2 Channel and the right recordings the soundstage is unbelivable.

This is no bullshit - Your front wall disappears - you can hear singers move there head from side to side and closer and farther from the mic. Listening to clasical music, you are in the conductors seat, you hear each section, sometimes individual instruments and can point to the exact location in space where the sound originates. I have a Beethovens 9th symphony recorded with a 70 person choir, you can hear where each vocal section was placed on the risers behind the orchestra. Like I stated fist, the front wall is gone. It sounds like the strings are 10 feet away and the choir is 80 feet away - as if they are really there. IT IS AMAZING.

JM

[BBB]

Wow. That was some fine posts Boa 12. My compliments to the answering machine. Couldn't of said it better.

Now I wonder if anyone around here knows something about the REF 30 ?

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tHe wORLDs werst TYPesT>

[lne937s]

After multiple flirtations with surround sound, I am back to 2 channel. I think I get surrounded by sound enough in my small room and would rather spend my money on 2 good channels than 5 ok ones. 5 would be great if I had 5 ears.

Also I can't believe how overinflated wattage ratings are today. My sevties amp- separate power supplies, etc, blows away contemporary amps rated twice as high.

If you don't believe me and hate your speakers, compare it to this- Every house in America has a high current, 38.87watt @ 60Hz test tone- its your electrical outlet (110volts divided by 2.83volts/watt @ 8ohms). Some have a 77.74watt outlett- the 220v appliance jack. WARNING- A car audio retailer in MO used to plug in one of their subwoofers that was rated @ 1200w to demonstrate its durability- I would not try this with regular speakers.

Larry

This message has been edited by lne937s on 07-03-2002 at 03:43 PM

[mpgwagon]

Receiver power ratings test:

Test was ran using my Scala's and Yamaha CD player. This is a very sceintific test done under controlled conditions. Remember I'm a professional DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME!

1970's Technics SA-404 rated 45 wpc. Has power level indicators starting at 2 wpc and notched volume control (40 notches):

1st. notch: very low volume

2nd. notch: normal listening level

3rd. notch: Ok, some passages too loud

4th. notch: The neighbors get mad

5th. notch: The 2 wpc lights start too blink

6th. notch: This is insane.

7th. notch: The next light (5.7 wpc) starts to blink.

8th. notch: I'd have to be crazy! But I'd sure like to see the next light(16 wpc)blink! May have to get some Bose to see it.

2002 Yamaha RXV 620. Rated 100 watts X 5. Volume range -99 to zero

-90: can't here it

-80: can't here it

-70: very low volume

-60: low volume

-50: Background music level

-40: Normal listening level

-30: OK, some passages too loud

-20: The neighbors get mad, starts to clip

-10: I'm afraid to push it!.

Don't get me wrong I like the Yamaha very much but like most new receivers it's power level rating is very optimistic.

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http://gallery.consumerreview.com/webcrossing/images/MYSTUFF.jpg

[boa12]

yea i still can't believe b&k copped out & did the japanese-style watt ratings @1khz. especially since the 7270 i have is supposed to have 75amps/channel capability. just found it to have more than enough to push all 6 of mine including the 4 biggies all cut at 50hz, & w/ a warm quality on music. hard to explain, but its crystal clear & revealing while being not too harsh at the same time.

& nowdays, technics tries to slide by on the 6 ohm rating. definitely have been some compromises from yesteryear, but then again prices are the same or even lower than the 70s (as far as "low & mid-fi" equipment goes).

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My Home Systems Page

[T2K]

I would like to thank a few of you for the laughs. Thanks.

Keith

[InventiveAudio.com]

I LOVE my DVD-A and SACD music presentations. I have Cornwalls (soon to be replaced with Khorns) and Heresys for sorrounds and a center. I just love the realism that sorround sounds affords me. I like that instruments are coming out of each speaker. I think it makes for great imaging and more life like concert performances. I actually prefer my 5.1 music listening over 2 channel music. I just find channel boring and uninspiring. The problem with 5.1 setups is that all your speakers have to be high quality.