Cable Myths Continued

[muel]

to save time... I think this will explain Mark's view of AB testing: http://www.aletheiaaudio.com/Double-Blind-Testing.html

Now back to my popcorn.

[Deang]

Go for it, it would be my pleasure to post it again.

Yes, the testing methodology that proved that Pioneer's cheapest receiver was indistinguishable in sound from a pair of Mark Levinson monoblocks.

[Louis Bartay]

Just when i was going to market some high definition speaker wire and audio cables something like this has to pop up.

I was out looking for a wireless Cornwall adaptor.

[Deang]

In the original, now locked thread, I posted several scientific articles which demonstrated the measurable differences between wire, and how these differences impact amplifiers and loudspeakers -- the audible differences being due to these interactions. Bateman's work was considered groundbreaking, and in light of his testing and resultant conclusions, I don't see where there is anything to debate.

[muel]

Hey, I love science and I love to explore how things work as well as exploring things that science doesn't (or doesn't very well).

In the end, if I make a change in my system sometimes it will take a number of days or weeks before I FEEL that it has been a change I like or dislike or don't really notice. Do I listen for longer or less? Am I drawn into the music more or less? I will then decide if the change was worth the money spent. Am I happy or sad about the expense? THAT is the measurement that matters.

Debate away... just be careful of the straw men lest the villagers get their torches.

[Zen Traveler]

Just curious--Does BEC also think there is audible differences in cables?

[neo33]

Something lacking from most of the posting here is the idea of incremental improvement. No one much described how they built their sound system, but if they can't hear differences in wire it's not likely they hear difference in amps or CDPs or probably anything but the speaker. And when you don't believe there are such differences, you'd have no reason to make incremental change. Especially when you try them ONE AT A TIME. You'd be forever saying to yourself, "no difference."

I can not hear any difference between a pair of $40 Radio Shack speaker cables and a pair of $500 Monster speaker cables. But I can hear the difference between my Moondogs and a pair of cheap Chinese-made tube amps; The difference is sometime like night and day. Your theory is flawed.

[Deang]

Al and Bob beat on me pretty bad on this issue. They are both advocates of the switching method, or what Al calls "the flash test." He says the problem with your argument is that it isn't based on memory at all, but the simple ability to hear something different when the switch is flipped. To his credit, he attempted to accommodate me by setting up a capacitor comparison listening test using headphones. I told him the switching method doesn't work because the ear/brain mechanism needs time to process what it's being exposed to. I had a really hard time trying to explain to him what I meant. The more I tried to explain it, the worse it got. He finally trapped me and said I couldn't on one hand claim that memory was a useless tool, and then say it took a higher level of engaged listening, with some time to process - to notice any differences.

I was irritated because he kept thinking I meant "to listen harder", when that's not what I meant at all. I now believe that's what most think when I say things like "critical listening" or "higher level of engagement", when all I really mean is listening without distraction, relaxed and focused. Anyways, He said if DBT relied on memory, then no more so than your/my method. However, he insisted DBT and ABX have nothing to do with memory whatsoever - flip the switch, and it either sounds different or it doesn't.

The result of the test was that his wife could hear a difference, but he could not. I didn't like the test, because I prefer the entire circuit be used, with music - not a single part with a single frequency or pink noise. So much is revealed in both the transient information (leading edge) and decay characteristics.

Without question, this is difficult stuff. All I know is that a certain thing built a certain way sounds one way, and the same certain thing built with different, but comparable parts, sounds a different way. It's frustrating, and all I can do is be faithful to what I believe and know will deliver the goods.

Edited January 30, 2014 by DeanG

[Deang]

Just curious--Does BEC also think there is audible differences in cables?

Is that supposed to be some kind of bad joke?

[BEC]

Just curious--Does BEC also think there is audible differences in cables?

Yes, I do think there could be audible differences. But, we have a standard of perfection. That would be plain old ordinary 16 AWG zip cord. First listen with the zip cord. Then listen with any other cable of any price or type. If they sound different from the reference zip cord, they are bad. Easy test.

Bob Crites

[muel]

Why care what it sounds like with a single frequency? I prefer to listen to music as opposed to test tones.

In my experience, "parts is parts" is a fallacy. I'll put this to my own test when I try out the Duelunds that showed up today.

[Zen Traveler]

Just curious--Does BEC also think there is audible differences in cables?

Yes, I do think there could be audible differences. But, we have a standard of perfection. That would be plain old ordinary 16 AWG zip cord. First listen with the zip cord. Then listen with any other cable of any price or type. If they sound different from the reference zip cord, they are bad. Easy test.

Bob Crites

No Dean--Not joking.

Thanks Bob. I really didn't remember where you stood on this issue and was curious.

Edited January 30, 2014 by tkdamerica

[Deang]

"The most electrically conductive element is silver, followed by copper and gold. Silver also has the highest thermal conductivity of any element and the highest light reflectance. Although it is the best conductor, copper and gold are used more often in electrical applications because copper is less expensive and gold has a much higher corrosion resistance."

So much for 16AWG copper zip cord being the "standard of perfection."

Edited January 30, 2014 by DeanG

[BEC]

"The most electrically conductive element is silver, followed by copper and gold. Silver also has the highest thermal conductivity of any element and the highest light reflectance. Although it is the best conductor, copper and gold are used more often in electrical applications because copper is less expensive and gold has a much higher corrosion resistance."

So much for the 16AWG copper zip cord "standard of perfection."

Saying that does not hurt the standard at all. I would expect 16 AWG gold or silver to sound the same as the 16 AWG copper and therefore be acceptable.

[muel]

I wish I had caught more of the program but I saw something a month or so ago where they were showing the effects of supercooling on conductivity. They had a wire going to a light bulb that was barely shining. Just by supercooling the wire the resistance of the wire was lowered enough that the bulb began burning very brightly. Maybe if I had supercooled 16 AWG copper speaker wire?!

[Islander]

Since all cables are imperfect, picking an easily available type as the "reference standard", or control, makes sense, but it's not a reference standard in the way we refer to a reference amp, turntable or other component, as being the best available.

Just going to 14 gauge copper should sound better, for example. I like to run at least 12 gauge speaker cable ("cable" sounds more technical than "wire", doesn't it?) in my system.

Is it true that silver wire sounds more "trebley" than copper wire?

[Deang]

I have no idea what gold sounds like, but I can tell you that silver loudspeaker wire and interconnects don't sound like their copper counterparts.

Think about that stranded copper Monster wire Klipsch used to use, and how nasty that stuff is now. All cheap stranded wire does the same thing within a year or two. I once measured a strip of that old dilapidated stuff with my multimeter and it was over a quarter of an ohm. How can this conductor type in that particular geometry be considered "the perfect standard" when it's obviously a step away from the trash can before you even get it off the spool?

When PWK had the steering wheel, it was all tin coated annealed copper wire. Beautiful stuff that looks the same now as the day it was installed. People often ask me what they should rewire with, and I recommend the Supra Classic from Madisound. It's a tin coated annealed copper wire, in a zip cord format, and I tell them to run it end to end. 14AWG Litz works good too, but takes some work. Neither will oxidize, and both are reasonably priced.

[DrWho]

However, he insisted DBT and ABX have nothing to with memory whatsoever - flip the switch, it either sounds different or it doesn't.

You mean they are playing music, and simply turn a switch from one source to another? Suppose the violinist was on C at switch position 1, and then on switch position 2 he was on F and joined by a piccolo playing F? What is it you think you are comparing?

Nothing to do with memory? What kind of biology was involved then to compare a past event if not memory?

Maybe you meant something else?

Let's try to understand what we experience. In a stereo system in a room, you create a 3 dimensional sound stage. The attributes you appreciate (take note of) are of many kinds or category. Some are purely aural, some are spatial, and some are emotional resultants. Tone is a different kind of experience than space. Space is different than sorrow. So, in summary, when you sit and you listen to a record, you are having a multi-dimensional experience involving not just sense inputs, but also emotional resultants - the qualia of the event.

Now, we come to an AB test of some kind. The test has a requirement to "find a difference". Your brain has been assigned a job, a task of very specific nature. You have switched your brain from enjoyment mode to test mode. The brain will attempt to focus on the simplest possible differential, then the next, then the next simplest. It is attempting to do a new thing now - difference processing, whereas before it was integrating the multi dimensions it is now differentiating them. Ergo, if the difference in A from B lies in a dimension that the current diffentiating brain is not paying attention to, then how would you hear the difference?

The test itself changes what you experience. And it can't be said any simpler. The act of testing closes off other dimensions you would normally experience because it is searching for a simple difference. Before you say phooey, look into the "invisible gorilla" effect of Chabris and Simons. In short, it is an experiment that shows the following. When the brain is directed to a specific task, it will ignore totally the most obvious gross inputs in an effort to stay on task. Although this experiment is visual, it is generally applied to any task of the brain and any of our senses.

Quote - Invisible Gorilla

It is one of the most famous psychological demos ever. Subjects are shown a video, about a minute long, of two teams, one in white shirts, the other in black shirts, moving around and passing basketballs to one another. They are asked to count the number of aerial and bounce passes made by the team wearing white, a seemingly simple task. Halfway through the video, a woman wearing a full-body gorilla suit walks slowly to the middle of the screen, pounds her chest, and then walks out of the frame. If you are just watching the video, it’s the most obvious thing in the world. But when asked to count the passes, about half the people miss it.

END QUOTE

Asking the brain to find small sonic difference is much harder than counting passes of the basketball. So, the brain narrows even further allowing more and more "reality" to pass unnoticed. In that reality, is where the small sound changes are contained. Ergo, testing is a different kind of listening than listening for pleasure.

That's why listening for things to be the same is way easier for the differences to be heard..... or really force yourself to enjoy the music while comparing.

Similar things happen when running a sound board too... where you're intentionally trying to make changes, but if you try to listen to the change itself, you're not going to accomplish your original goal. I call it “ listening with virgin ears“.... and it's really hard to do.

I've seen sound guys barely touch knobs and then exalt the changes that happened.... all the while they didn't realize they accidentally left the eq disabled. When I catch myself doing things like that I try to snap back into the virgin ears. But I think the effect is the same as the shift in focus with comparative listening.

Unfortunately, we're often consumed with the fear of the implications of not hearing the difference, and that's an even worse mindset to get into.

[toolz]

Once again thebes you have provided a topic for a interesting read.

[Islander]

Since all cables are imperfect, picking an easily available type as the "reference standard", or control, makes sense, but it's not a reference standard in the way we refer to a reference amp, turntable or other component, as being the best available.

Just going to 14 gauge copper should sound better, for example. I like to run at least 12 gauge speaker cable ("cable" sounds more technical than "wire", doesn't it?) in my system.

Is it true that silver wire sounds more "trebley" than copper wire?

Are you saying you haven't experienced all these speaker wires yourself?

I haven't heard silver wire, but with copper wire, I've found that bigger is better. For the bi-amped front Left and Right speakers I've been using 10 AWG and 8 AWG twisted pair fine-strand (462 strands x 2 for 10 AWG, 805 x 2 for 8 AWG) tinned copper speaker cable for years, and it sounds better than the 18, 16, 14 and 12 AWG I used to use. I still use 12 AWG for the surround speakers, since their content is not as critical as what's coming out of the front speakers.

More info here: http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KAR08SS