Cable Myths Continued

[Don Richard]

I use 10ft. Panduit brand Cat6 cables. They lay nice and flat and have good quality 24AWG stranded conductors (8x) individually insulated and twisted into pairs. I split them in half and utilize two pairs per terminal (4x 24AWG), with the ends twisted together and tinned. No extra connectors added. They've always sounded good with indiscernible noise and distortion.

Isn't the four pairs inside the cables all twisted differently? If so, it seems like you could end up with different wire lenths.

And, that's not the reason most people prefer wire A over B. It's because of those other dimensions, like spatial location and clarity.

Now, please tell me something about those "other dimensions" that affect spatial location and clarity. Are you perhaps referring to the unknown dimensions predicted by string theory and M theory? If so, you need to stop posting here and start communicating with Steven Hawking immediately. If you have actually discovered the nature of any of the 6 or 7 heretofore unknown dimensions predicted by these theories you would have made one of the most important discoveries in human history and would certainly win a Nobel Prize in Physics.

I'm sitting here anxiously waiting with bated breath.

I realize that there is different slang used in various parts of the country, but I find it interesting that the words "that affect" can be substituted for the word "like" in a sentence and have the sentence still mean the same thing. Oh, so much to learn as I thought spatial location and clarity meant that 3D sound and were just other dimensions of the music experience that some found important, not some string theory .....

I don't understand what you are talking about here. I was not talking in "slang". You can substitute "which influence" for "that affects" if it helps you understand my point.

Edited February 1, 2014 by Don Richard

[Mallette]

Now, please tell me something about those "other dimensions" that affect spatial location and clarity.

Submitted for your approval...you are about to enter another dimension...

Dave

[psg]

The wire and other tweaks crowd don't have an exclusive on seeking audio bliss. I resent it when you imply it.

We're not going to agree here. And your resentment mentioned above is sufficient information for me at this point. Resentfulness is not something to be engaged. I like the general argument about wire for it's scientific and it's subjective aspects. Its a fun, fascinating and interesting argument to me. When people say they are resentful however, that's my cue not to engage in argument because the resentment only builds. Thanks for offering your opinion.

I can see that we are not going to agree. You could have stop at that. Invoking my resentment to justify discontinuing the discussion paints me as the bad guy. Not cool, considering what I resented was you mis-appropriating the seeking of good sound for yourself, and painting some of us as merely on an insignificantly quest for flat frequency response. And please don't claim the side of science here as well. As you said in your next post, your criteria are subjective, not objective.

With that, I end my contribution to this thread.

[Fjd]

And, that's not the reason most people prefer wire A over B. It's because of those other dimensions, like spatial location and clarity.

Now, please tell me something about those "other dimensions" that affect spatial location and clarity. Are you perhaps referring to the unknown dimensions predicted by string theory and M theory? If so, you need to stop posting here and start communicating with Steven Hawking immediately. If you have actually discovered the nature of any of the 6 or 7 heretofore unknown dimensions predicted by these theories you would have made one of the most important discoveries in human history and would certainly win a Nobel Prize in Physics.

I'm sitting here anxiously waiting with bated breath.

I realize that there is different slang used in various parts of the country, but I find it interesting that the words "that affect" can be substituted for the word "like" in a sentence and have the sentence still mean the same thing. Oh, so much to learn as I thought spatial location and clarity meant that 3D sound and were just other dimensions of the music experience that some found important, not some string theory .....

I don't understand what you are talking about here. I was not talking in "slang". You can substitute "which influence" for "that affects" if it helps you understand my point.

I'll try to explain it in a different way. In some respects I’m attending an ‘event’ by reading every post. I’m not up there on the “panel” of “experts” debating the various points of contention. I’m in the audience. Please keep in mind that there are many of us in the audience that think we can actually learn something from the threads. Every once in a while, we in the audience tend to ‘raise our hands’ and ask a question or look for clarification.

Now I have found many very interesting points (i.e. I find the use of Cat6 cable intriguing) that I have talked about the respective points of view with others outside the forum and may do additional research through other sources. It does help in my decision making process when I want to change something in my ‘chain of gear.’

From another perspective, I’ve read many posts in the thread where it looks like some people may only be reading, or focused on, how their own posts have been responded to and may not have a feel for the entire discussion.

From the various posts I have been evaluating various aspects of objective criteria in equipment selection and various aspects of subjective criteria in equipment selection.

In reading every post made in all of the cable threads, I have interpreted the discussion around spatial location and clarity to be only two dimensions of the music listening experience. Others have discussed various dimensions that they have found important to the music listening experience.

There is a great thread on “corner horn imaging” full of great implementation information that also impacts spatial location.

There are a couple of great cross-over threads where people have compared and contrasted subjective listening experiences and how it impacted the music experience.

Here it seems that we were getting into information on how this part of the “chain of gear” (wire), may or may not; subjectively impact a person’s music listening experience.

I read the sentence that states some people MAY prefer WIRE A over B because wire A has a better subjective impact on two dimensions (spatial location and clarity) of that person’s subjective preferences for their individual music listening experience.

Now, to me, I read your comment of “Now, please tell me something about those "other dimensions" that affect spatial location and clarity.”

What should be the interpretation when comparing the two sentences? To me, your sentence seemed to bypass the subjective preference of WIRE A's over wire B's subjective impact on spatial location and clarity for that individual listener and only seemed to substitute the phrase "other dimensions" in place of "wire" in the sentence, then go on to speculate that those "other dimensions" must be string theory or something else.

I've read many of your posts and do think in most situations you add a lot that people can learn from, but starting to wonder about this one. My apologies if you did not understand, or were offended by, my attempt at humor by just attributing the semantics that I have detailed above in how word position, or word choice can impact meaning, to ‘slang.’ Momma always told me to never quit my day job.

Edited February 1, 2014 by Fjd

[Mallette]

I can't just let you post and post and then not response just because you get resentful. I don't want to argue with anyone who gets resentful.

Hmmm... Then why were you forced to respond?

Dave

[Ski Bum]

I don't know how many people practice NF listening. But, I'll bet that most who do, end up selecting at least one special cable in their system.

Yes, I do (have a couple near field rigs). No, no particularly special cables involved. Once again, LHWYA.

[Don Richard]

When I listen to my records, all those frequency response issues are just "one aspect" (sometimes called a dimension) of sound. A much more important "aspect" (e.g. dimension) for me is the 3D sound field created by the system. It spread across the room, it spread vertically, and it spreads from front to back. Musicans will have places in this sound field. One might be far in the back and to the left 4 feet off the floor. Another might be far to the right in the very front. One might be in the middle/middle. As well as placement in the field, there is a clarity of the field itself. Is it transparent? Or, are there half a dozen gauze curtains hanging down front to back? Or worse yet, heavier curtains? Is it all foggy? Do the musicians seem to be bouncing around or stable? Is the trumpet really a distinct space from the trombone, or is it sounding like one muddle mess? Does the singer have a mouth 8 feet wide? Or is there an image of a human there? Is there air around these musicians or water...or oil...or goo? Do the sounds flow from the instruments? Or does the sound seem forced or squeezed or shot from the instruments? That's the kind of consideration I am making in a subjective way. If there's an a bit of a peak or valley here or there, it doesn't affect these questions to any significant extent. It's more like sitting in a different seat. None of those subjective aspects can be predicted by measuring amps, speakers or wires. They have no objective correlation. So all your snarky nonsense about Hawking and string theory has no meaning here. Rather, what you are doing is using each post as a vehicle to deliver what you think is an insult to me. Juvenile nonsense reflects on the writer, not the reader. Very little of what you write is related to the subject matter.

Be careful. I have not yet begun to snark

All that you have described is more related to the quality of the recording to which you are listening than what a few feet of wire can do to the reproduction of that recording. I remember in the early years of stereophonic sound there were Command Records, a company known for ping pong stereo effects and other exaggerations of the stereo effect. A lot of people who just bought stereos would get these records to demonstrate their new toys, but they soon tired of the phony stereo effects that did not sound natural. What seems to be happening today is that a lot of people are moving into smaller homes and apartments where a large, loud stereo just won't fit. Since they cannot achieve a convincing, natural sound they gravitate toward smaller systems that fit their lifestyle. One well known purveyor of audio garbage even sells a system named that, IIRC. So they get what they want and are happy with their purchase because it sounds better than their Ipods or car radios. If they want to upgrade to a better system they look in the audio magazines for advice, magazines who make much more selling advertising than they make selling the magazine itself. The audio salons also don't mind selling a high profit item like cables to the unwary who hope to make a real change to their system. Its easy money, folks, shear the sheep and laugh all the way to the bank. I've listened to the magic cables and when I have heard differences between them and the homemade cables I brought to the store the difference was not a positive one.

So here's a simple, objective question for you to answer, Mark. What brands of cables have you tried and what are you using now? And for a subjective analysis, what differences did you hear between the cables you used?

[kaiser SET say]

I love how much Mark fires up the passion some have for this hobby that no one is really an authority in but so many like to think they are! It's pretty easy to listen to something you like and buy then enjoy the music. I treat audio just like video, I went back several times to Best Buy and watched every 50" LCD and Plasma model until I determined what I considered the best picture and bought it and have enjoyed it for 4 years now and who cares if anyone else likes it or thinks their's is better. Nothing but ego going now, I bought the 50" store brand a couple years later and we love that one as well, wife's TV and she loves it because it's brighter which it is but I/We enjoy both of them. I have two separate systems in the Man Cave and realize what both are and what both are strong and weak at but love them both. Buy what you like, enjoy what you buy and who cares what others think they know:-)

[Mallette]

Why would this be your concern? I think it is PSG's business

Well, pardon me all to hell. Could have sworn this was a public place. If it's PSG and your business, we have PM for that.

Dave

[Don Richard]

Now, to me, I read your comment of “Now, please tell me something about those "other dimensions" that affect spatial location and clarity.” What should be the interpretation when comparing the two sentences? To me, your sentence seemed to bypass the subjective preference of WIRE A's over wire B's subjective impact on spatial location and clarity for that individual listener and only seemed to substitute the phrase "other dimensions" in place of "wire" in the sentence, then go on to speculate that those "other dimensions" must be string theory or something else.

OK I see what you are saying now, thanks for clearing that up. That's what happens when I try to write when I'm in the middle of doing something else. This is all about electricity and what I really want to know is how the wire could make a significant change in the sound. I think the answer lies in the equipment more than the wire itself. If there is an impedance mismatch between a preamplifier and the power amp, for example, the cable might help that situation. That would explain why some people hear no difference when swapping wires and some do. You would think a designer of a piece of amplification equipment would try to decouple or buffer the inputs and outputs to prevent such interactions from happening, but for whatever reason that may not be the case. I do know that Naim requires the use of a proprietary speaker cable with some of their amplifiers because they do not put an output inductor inside the amplifier, preferring instead to use a high inductance cable to ensure amplifier stability.

Edited February 2, 2014 by Don Richard

[Mallette]

bought the 50" store brand a couple years later and we love that one as well,

I'm like that about video. Got a 56" one in the main TV room, but only paid about a 1000 for it on sale. Nice plasma, excellent image. Got a 40" in the master bedroom whose brand I don't even know. Think I paid about 350 for it. Excellent image. Got a 40" in the music room, a Visio. It's a smart TV and has the best, fastest, most reliable WiFi connection I've ever had. Gets HD all the time and looks awesome. It was about 400.00

Many spend as much time studying video as we do on audio. The best I've ever seen is still flat as a pancake and doesn't pass the "Mallette's Cat" test. When one does, I'll pay more attention. Until then, I'll use audio for a more real alternate reality experience.

Dave

[Don Richard]

So here's a simple, objective question for you to answer, Mark. What brands of cables have you tried and what are you using now? And for a subjective analysis, what differences did you hear between the cables you used?

The last 4 or 5 years have had me wrapping up a business, getting into retirement mode, moving to a new part of the country, and taking care of my 92 year old mother. The last seriously tuned system I had set up was in 2008. Since then, just a simple TT, amp, and bookshelf speakers (and of course headphones).

During the JMA years I was given or loaned several cables by their makers, dealers and customers of mine. I had some nice Cardas, Incognito, Kimber and Audioquest cables in my system at times. For the most part though, I used my own cables to be sure I kept my product development process neutral and generic. I also did not want to be put into the position of recommending one company over another. Or worse yet, giving anyone the impression that they would have to buy an expensive cable in order to enjoy a BlueBerry.

In near field listening the biggest change between generic and non-generic was 3D clarity. The only metaphor I can use here that makes sense to me is this. Imagine a view from indoors to outdoors in which there are 5 glass windows in series. You have to look through all 5. Those windows represent each of the components you have in your chain. One window is tinted slightly green, another window has ripples in the glass, another window is cloudy in color, another window has cracks running through it and another one is just very dirty. My objective is to get the best possible view of outdoors. Cleaning up any of those windows makes the view better. A good cable was like cleaning up a foggy window. It might improve resolution and detail, or it might make the ether in between musicians seem more transparent. FWIW, I had some cables that I think sold for $1500, and some for about $300, and a few in between. My preference did not line up with the price, and not all of them were preferred over my home made cables. Which means, some were better, some were worse, and price wasn't the determination.

In the next year or so, I am going to create another NF system. I will be using a variety of the new wave of small tube amplifiers, and no doubt there will be some point where wire will be considered. Maybe I'll find out something new?

That all makes perfect sense to me. I've been using my headphones more lately, mostly plugging them into the computer and listening/watching videos. This video was posted here a couple of weeks ago and I really enjoyed it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz7usUEPWsc

Valentina Lisista can really bang it out!

Edited February 2, 2014 by Don Richard

[oldtimer]

A little entertainment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UQDTZcpsDE&feature=player_embedded

[ZAKO]

Can I place McPingo DOTS on my cables to make them sound better ?????? This thread is beginning to read like the Tower Of Babble,,,My eyes are glazing over......BUT IT IS INTERESTING..

[Mallette]

Can I place McPingo DOTS on my cables to make them sound better ??????

Absolutely. But you need tabs too...of acid. Stick'em on your tongue and even old Bobby Sherman records will sound awesome. "boom a boom a boom..."

Dave

[mike stehr]

Can I place McPingo DOTS on my cables to make them sound better ??????

Absolutely. But you need tabs too...of acid. Stick'em on your tongue and even old Bobby Sherman records will sound awesome. "boom a boom a boom..."

Dave

McPingo Micro Dot

[ZAKO]

I hope I don't overdose on Micro dots,,,

[Don Richard]

Having been convinced of the audibility of cables in home audio systems and in full belief of all the claims made in the advertisements of cable companies, I have found a device with even more magical properties than wire. As soon as I finish typing this I am going to order one:

http://www.rane.com/pi14.html

Edited February 4, 2014 by Don Richard

[ZAKO]

A wine bottle cork opener ????

[oldenough]

Having been convinced of the audibility of cables in home audio systems and in full belief of all the claims made in the advertisements of cable companies, I have found a device with even more magical properties than wire. As soon as I finish typing this I am going to order one:

http://www.rane.com/pi14.html

:D