Ski Bum Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) What IS the Hobby? I say again...this is a serious question. Music appreciation for the most part, with a dollop of techno-geekery mixed in simply because we need to access our music collections somehow. Edited February 6, 2014 by Ski Bum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sancho Panza Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Thank you, S B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) OR, For those who consider it a full blown hobby: Techno-geekery for the most part, with a dollop of music appreciation as a reason. Edited February 6, 2014 by oldtimer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sancho Panza Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Thank you ot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzannucci Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 What IS the Hobby? I say again...this is a serious question. I would say it is more than just music appreciation (or an airport in Houston). Many people on the forum are very technical. Due to that, the hobby becomes electronics, speakers, music, and design. Now for the cable question, why do even different 12Gauge zip cord cables with PVC coating sound different? To me, it isn't price, it's compatibility. If it sounds good, you will typically stick with it though others are lulled into a belief that they can get better if they spend more money, but with it match your system and your desired sound? Who knows until you paid the cash.... Technically it should be as simple as cable parameters but I think it could also have to do with the cable metals and such. I just wish there was an easy way to measure the cable parameters since they are not all published. mdeneen or deang, is there an easy way to measure cables with something as simple as using WT3 or a product like that from Parts Express? I'd like to examine my different cables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) I dunno, I just think it's crazy to talk about the validity of caring about minuscule changes in light of much larger problems. For instance, that 0.01dB difference from your cable is swamped by your speaker's +/-3dB variation, We're talking about different reference points I think. I don't care about the 0.01dB difference. I don't apply any value to small differences in frequency response. The essential reason I might prefer cable A to B will have some description sounding like this as an example: "A sounds grundgy compared to B. B has better definition and more clarity in the depth. " Now, first of all, that is a fully subjective analysis. I am not suggesting that there is a .1dB difference in FR, or any such thing. I hear the sound and I evaluate it as though it was simply coming from the ether. It is just there in the room, and now what can I say about it? "Hmmmm? It's very dark and muddy and indistinct between the guitar sounds and the piano sounds. Doesn't sound like what I think a guitar and piano should sound like." That's how I evaluate. All this business about the FR of wires doesn't matter to me. I agree that all stereos are a bad comparison to live performance. But, this is what we have. Small differences affecting the QUALITY (not measurements) affects my ability to enjoy the illusion, the fantasy. Clarity, tone, spaciousness, freedom from strain, details, realness of soundstage, color, smoothness and so on are ways that bring me closer to an illusion of real performance. I too could care less about minor differences in frequency response - it's just an easy concept to use for making comparisons. I would love to dive into more of the minutia, but very few grasp the more technical concepts. However, if you're in fact hearing a difference (which I don't deny), then I believe there exists an objective measure that quantifies that difference. For the engineer that wants to recreate or fabricate your experience, it is vital to understand what metrics accomplish that and what metrics have no affect. I'm also open to the idea that we don't know what that objective measure is yet. We can model cables with extreme accuracy using lumped signal models (using inductors, capacitors, and resistors) - and we can even predict with extreme accuracy the nature in which the source and receiving circuitry respond to different lumped load / source impedances. Or if you want to get even more crazy, we could bust out S-Params, or even go all the way to using wave equations and treating the system like a complicated wave-guide. Maybe we want to get into the quantum mechanics of what's happening? I have confidence dealing within that realm too since I have seen great correlation between simulation and measurement and audible perception. We could get into the non-linear affects and explore how the lumped components change with temperature, signal level, mechanical stress, etc... So what objective metrics do we want to discuss as potential influences of that subjective impression of differences in cable? I would propose that for every objective measure, I could demonstrate other aspects in the system that are generating a much larger percentage of error.....and this gets back to my fake refinement comments: people are getting hung up on small improvements when there are opportunities for much larger improvements. I agree that doesn't belittle the fact that one experiences it as an improvement, but it certainly puts it into a realistic perspective. That said, if anyone can present any real physical phenomenon at play that isn't swamped by other aspects of the system, then I would consider that a huge learning opportunity and that would greatly benefit the audio community. Edited February 6, 2014 by DrWho 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Measure or Listen? Measurement is a design tool. Please raise your hand if you got out a tape measure and calipers when you brought home your new sofa, and crawled over it making measurements? Your new car? When you design is when you use measurements. And they are useful markers for guiding that activity. But in audio we have to be extremely careful not to adopt the wrong rational for measuring. When I design an amplifier I am in constant measurement mode. There is a stack of calculation which must be confirmed by measurements. I don't know of any audio engineer who doesn't do this, and I have worked with many, both old school and new. But here's the thing....I don't pretend the measure will predict the sound. Because it never does. The measuring is like guiding a car to a specific destination on a map. It takes me to "X marks the spot." Now, I get out of the car and look around (listen to the results on a stereo). And I say, is this the place I want to be? Almost always, the answer is "nope." Now, I get back in the car, and try to imagine a better place to be and begin moving again. Only listening subjectively can tell me if the place I arrived at is useful. The measurements at the moment of listening are irrelevant, meaningless, useless and without merit. They only got me to a place, that's all. What about the situation when there is a problem with the sound that needs to be fixed? Sometimes one can listen to the system and make an educated guess as to what the problem might be. People often post on this forum about a problem they hear in their system and describe the problem well enough so that the likely cause can be identified and a fix implemented. Sometimes the problem has been isolated to the power amplifier and they want to know how to fix the problem. If it's not something obvious like a blown fuse, a burned part, or an easy fix like swapping a bad tube, then what do you do? Break out the VOM and/or oscilloscope and start measuring things in a logical fashion to see if you can isolate the problem. If the person does not have that sort of equipment and the knowledge to use it properly, his only option is to send it to the shop for repair. Electronically time aligning a 3 way loudspeaker with no measurement equipment? Unless someone has already done that for your speaker and published the settings, it can't be done. Proper use of measurements can help in setting a system up and as a troubleshooting aid if a person hears something wrong with their system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Mark, I will say up front that I do not understand most of the technical aspects of this discussion, nor do I understand the argument you put forward as regards testing methods(AB/X). Hopefully this will not void me from being allowed to ask a question of you. You seem (to me) to dismiss such testing because of the failings of the humans mind, and I get that, you say that you can discern these differences in your own system, and I will take your word on that. Now I hope this isn't to simplistic approach, but if those same cables that you say made an audible difference to you were removed from the system would you immediately realise it, or would it dawn on you only over time? I hope this makes sense to you, not trying to be argumentative, I just had a thought flash through my simple mind and wanted it answered in a simple way, please answer so as this layman can understand, but don't spare on the details. Thanks. I think it takes a lot of time. And, not just listening while you vacuum the carpets, but deep focused listening in the perfect environment. Which means quiet, rested, relaxed, interested, and so on. Only gross changes are immediate, and even then you might be surprised at how bad people are at hearing. I don't like to tell too many anecdotes, but since you asked a question where I can use one instructively, I will do do. We had a big amplifier shoot out a few years ago at a fellows house. He had Khorns. There were maybe 3 pairs of monoblocks to listen to. I had my pCATS, and there were two other brands. It was informal. We played A then B then A and so on. Now, I am VERY familiar with the sound of pCATS. So, we played pCATS then the other amp, then back to pCATS and people were being asked what kind of differences they heard. I let anyone talk who wanted to talk. Most of the comments were a bit vague "I heard better detail" or "Smoother" and so on. When the comments were over, I asked the owner of the house to please check the phase of his Khorns. They were out of phase. Now, because I know the sound of my amps through a deep and long learning curve, it was instantly apparent to me that the speakers were out of phase. And maybe you can say others should have known too, but you know, you're in a group, and there is pressure and so on. So, phase was corrected, and we proceeded. That's an example of a big difference being instantly identified. But, if someone had swapped out my NOS telefunken in the driver stage and put something else in, I would never catch it in that environment. Never. Later, after putting many of my well known recording on, I would hear something that ought not be there and then go hunting it down. Listening for small stuff takes time. Improving a system to get clarity and space and effortless sound takes a lot of effort and time. If I invert phase on one speaker, imaging completely disappears. No imaging at all would be a huge issue and I wouldn't be commenting on better detail or smoother, I'd be asking about the lack of any imaging! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Mark, all the subjective qualities you want to attribute to wire seem to me (and many more knowledgeable folks like Toole, Olive, Geddes, PWK, the list goes on) like they are the realm of source material, speakers, and the room. The speaker wire is so inconsequential in it's effect relative to those factors that it makes this whole discussion a case of missing the forest for the trees. If your wire is so good at "massive improvements in sound quality", why do you bother listening near field? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 It wouldn't help me evaluate the sound style of a system, however. Dogmatic close-mindedness noted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Mark, all the subjective qualities you want to attribute to wire seem to me (and many more knowledgeable folks like Toole, Olive, Geddes, PWK, the list goes on) like they are the realm of source material, speakers, and the room. The speaker wire is so inconsequential in it's effect relative to those factors that it makes this whole discussion a case of missing the forest for the trees. If your wire is so good at "massive improvements in sound quality", why do you bother listening near field? Wow, are you really going to make him explain this for like the fifth time in this thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) If you're listening to a set of quality monitors that are pulled off the walls, and you're sitting within like 6 or 7 feet of them -- how is the room swamping anything? A room might swamp issues related to FR, but what about distortion? The room is part of creating the illusion, our job is to make it work for us, not against us. If we do our jobs right, it isn't "swamping" anything. Edited February 6, 2014 by DeanG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) mdeneen or deang, is there an easy way to measure cables with something as simple as using WT3 or a product like that from Parts Express? I'd like to examine my different cables. There's a lot of instruments available, both classic and software driven. And there's quite a lot of measurements you can make regarding cables. Just like you could make on inductors or capacitors. You can compile a lot of data very easily. Miles of it. I can only say that I don't think any of this data will accurately predict the sound quality of various cables. On a gross level, perhaps. But not in any useful way for me. Let us know about your data if you do it. I just posted an attachment/paper on the previous page by C. Bateman. Wire is an interface which effects the behavior of the components it's connected to. Results vary wildley and are often unpredicable. Edited February 6, 2014 by DeanG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Surely by now you have a list of aspects! Let's see them! Really only one for me: Transparency. I've always said the greatest insult to a system is someone saying "Wow, those are GREAT sounding loudspeakers!" However...This is arguably for me a function of the source material. I have an acoustic recording made in the '20s that has a bass sax on it I can hear straight through to and it virtually paints an image in my head of the guy being only a foot or to from the recording horn. Really amazing... I've always been of the opinion that it's also why the horn haters say horns are harsh. They dang sure are if the material sux. My opinion: MERCILESSLY transparent. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) "Transparency" is one of those evil words that we are told doesn't really mean anything -- I mean, WHAT in God's name IS IT!!!!!!!!!! How about, "open", "relaxed", "effortless", etc. Edited February 6, 2014 by DeanG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Isn't it interesting we still haven't seen a list of "aspects?" Everyone talks about aspects of stereos, in the plural, as though we all know what we mean by aspects! Really, is this something people have not pondered? It should easily come pouring out if you have been doing this for more than say, a year or two. If one listens to music, one hears music...and perhaps some system and acoustic issues serious enough to intrude on it. That's the exception rather than the rule for me. Around 15 years ago, an esteemed member of this group visited my home. We were listening and I could tell he was picking up on something. Eventually he went to the right speaker and said "You gotta (hiss, crackle, hum...don't recall now) in there." I'd not heard it...but, of course, once he'd pointed it out it was ALL I heard until I got it fixed. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I just have to comment on Dean's "effortless" quality. It's in my top five of aspects Fair enough...but it's a component of "transparency" for me. Any of the aspects you list are such, IMHO. I first note a lack of transparency...then figure out just what is causing it. Sort of like noticing from a distance that window is fuzzy, hazy, or somehow just not right...then getting closer and finding a film, or smear, or whatever on it that's causing it. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sancho Panza Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Thank you for your answer, pzannucci. No thanks to those who had the less than helpful answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 If any of you in this thread ever make it through N. Texas, please contact me. I'd love to have your feedback on my setup (in whatever configuration the setup happens to be at that time), relative to your personal experiences. There's too much head knowledge and experience here to have it wasted on forum posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Mark, I think I'm like your wife. I'm more focused on having an expansive music collection, and accessing it wherever I am, than the gear used to deliver it. I want the least common denominator between budget, preferred sound quality, and effort. I have no interest in perpetual gear changes, or tearing down and rebuilding, once that goal has been reached. I love to read about the latest and greatest, but rarely do I rush out and buy that gear which provides only incremental change. I find that I've been judging my system based on these criteria.. distortion - is there noticeable garbage through my listening volume range (65-90dB)? tonal balance - is there excessive bass, face cringing highs? sound stage - does it present a pleasant representation of instrument and vocal locations? fiddle factor - is it easy to tweak, easy to get music playing? does any component require too much effort to tweak or get music playing? i'm less concerned with perfectly accurate representation of a live performance. all of my live performance experiences have been rock concerts, and the quality of sound in those cases was crap. I was there for the experience of seeing my favorite bands in person. certain music I only listen to while driving or working in the garage or at my desk at work. i find certain music only enjoyable on my 2-channel setup. those decisions are more mood/attention based than the gear and environment involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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