oldtimer Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 No but you don't need a sub for tympani. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) was also scooted along Man, I need some speakers that can do that on a LOT of material I've heard! As to Mike Bentz I quote Clarke's first law: "When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong." More important; Noli spurios te contundere. Cheers, Dr. Dave Edited February 7, 2014 by Mallette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Mike is a working guy and doesn't have a lot of time to post, so I appreciate the effort he makes in each post, and I know he can't do what many of us retired guys do by posting a lot. So, I want to bring this post back up because many of you just didn't get the idea that there are many aspects to the sound. And that if you think X aspect is more important than Y aspect your judgment about the whole thing will move in that direction. Mike is absolutely right to ask "which aspects?" He knows there are obviously more than one, and he knows that for his priorities X might be more important than Y. He is suggesting they be attacked in some order of perceived importance or effect. Good thinking. Now, if the argument is about the change brought about by cables, we need to know what KIND of change. e.g. what sort of "aspect" of sound is being affected? I have already clear said that it isn't about frequency response. FR is one "aspect" of the sound. How about noise? Is that another aspect? How about distortion? Which kind? How about the favorite of the Brittish speaker manufacturers - "coloration?" Is that an aspect? Again, what kind. So, those are examples of what Mike is asking about. Where does this difference lie? What dimension? Why is everyone (Except Thad!) so reluctant to name any of these aspects important to their judgement of a stereo? You don't care about them? You haven't thought about them? You've never heard them mentioned? Yes! Now that would be an interesting discussion....I should have read everything before replying to your earlier post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Proper use of measurements can help in setting a system up and as a troubleshooting aid if a person hears something wrong with their system. I agree. But have we been discussing troubleshooting in all these threads? No. Have I made any arguments about troubleshooting? No. So, I don't see that this advances any particular argument about the quality of sound vis a vis cables and wires. Don, describe for me your "sound style." What are your goals when you listen to your stereo? It seems like many people desire to improve their systems, so they read the audio magazines hoping to find the solution to the particular issue that is bothering them. They are not going to find much information about solving problems in the selection of magazines on the newsstands today. What they will find is a lot of advertising for various audio products along with reviews of those audio products. A reviewer may write, "Cable XYZ removed the veil from the music and made it sound sparkling and lifelike" or something like that. So the poor listener buys the product in the hope that this will solve the problem he is hearing on his system. At this point 2 things will happen: 1) He hears no difference. 2) He hears a difference. 1) If he hears no difference he might take the cables back to the store where the salesman might say, "These cables require a break-in period of several weeks or months". So the listener goes home to "break in" his cables. Of course, there is no such thing as "cable break-in", but after a period of time the listener may think the cables have broken-in and delude himself into thinking he has achieved the improvement he was seeking. Or not. 2) If he actually hears a positive difference he is happy, thinking the new cables have solved the problem that he heard. Most of the time the improvement he heard was because the connections on his old cable had loosened and/or had some corrosion issues. The action of unplugging the old cable cleaned the jack combined with the new cable's clean connectors have solved the issue that was interfering with his enjoyment of the music. He could have saved some time and money by troubleshooting the problem then cleaning the connectors on his old cable. It is a good idea to periodically clean the connections on any sound system to prevent those sorts of issues from ever happening, but most non-technical types don't do this. They were never told to do so in the magazines because the magazines are mostly in the business of helping their advertisers sell their products. As far as my "sound style", I listen to a variety of music from classical to country, gospel to rock. I expect my system to reproduce whatever I decide to play and to sound as close to what it sounded like when I heard the music live as possible. As far as I can tell, most of that is another polemic about your mistrust of manufacturers and salesmen and companies and such. Yeah, old news. I get it. You don't want to get ripped off. You are carrying Marty's banner that all audio hobbyists are suckers getting ripped off every day, and your goal is to save them the pain. Ok. No, it's an example of how troubleshooting a problem can lead to a quicker and more satisfactory result than randomly purchasing a product and merely hoping it helps solve an audio problem. The rest of your assumptions about cleaning off the connections and so on, are just crazy unsupported guesses about something you have no way to know. You're throwing up resistance in the form of absurdity. You're in the know as to what ever cable buy experiences, and why. I doubt that. Something I have no way to know? How dare you suggest that I am making crazy, unsupported guesses. I've been fooling with electronics since I was a licensed amateur radio operator at the age of 14, and in my 52 years of electronics experience the most common problems with electronic equipment are connections and grounding. What I gave was solid advice regarding audio equipment maintenance. As far as audio cables go, IMO most of the boutique brands are ripoffs, at least the ones I've heard (or more accurately, not heard. Mostly there was no difference to hear). Just read the ads in the magazines or on the cable guys' websites. These guys should get the Nobel Prize in Pseudoscience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Mark, I don't have a clue from that what speaker they are talking about, but you've done one thing there I really appreciate. I realized that replacing the speaker name with "XXXXXX" suddenly makes one realize just how much of a red herring it is in such reviews. The rest is largely meaningless boilerplate that could be rearranged nicely to fit almost any half decent speaker on the market. My own reviews pretty much fall into three sentences: 1. I like them 2. I like them...not a lot, mind you, but I like them. 3. They suck. I don't like things that suck. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungkiman Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 No but you don't need a sub for tympani. Later in the review, he removed the sub woofer and said he didn't miss it. He tried it because it was part of the system being evaluated. No one recognizes the speaker? Volti Vittora comes to mind... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungkiman Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 No but you don't need a sub for tympani. Later in the review, he removed the sub woofer and said he didn't miss it. He tried it because it was part of the system being evaluated. No one recognizes the speaker? Volti Vittora comes to mind... Yes. What would be your comments on that speaker? They look great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minermark Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 What is really being argued at this point? I hope some people answer. I have answered a few times already. Someday when I get lots of time, like retire, iv got just about every type of dam coax, lamp cord, zip cord, monster, belden, carol, GE, well you get the idea. Ill dig out the Quad trace scope, and throw together a test rig. then I,WE, will know more, ill even let the forum members pick how long to make the two runs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 People with no interest in audiophile issues pretty much stick to that level of analysis. Stopped right there. I AM an audiophile, by definition: I like good sound. Good sound is an audiophile issue. Are you saying that if a person doesn't add a hundred words when two will do that's a bad thing? Don't get it. As to Art Dudley, he's totally changed since Listener. It was observing the complete change in a person I really enjoyed reading when he appeared to be able to speak for himself to a person who appeared to have to speak for a magazine that caused me to begin to realize that mass market audio magazines must be read as one watches "reality" TV. Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungkiman Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Dudley is well respected to people that agree with him, but he only represents his own opinion. To believe he also represents mine would be folly. Mallette's "Likey" makes the same point, but with an exemplary degree of subtlety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Mallette's "Likey" makes the same point, but with an exemplary degree of subtlety. If I were being paid, I'd use a lot more words just to make it a "read." But I'd say precisely the same thing. I sure as heck wouldn't say "This speaker made the music scoot along" WHAT IN THE BLOODY HELL IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN? Art is a fine writer, and he's learned to do what it takes to make a living when you aren't the editor. All of us who "work for the man" must do likewise to some extent. I still enjoy some of what he has to say, but he's not the guy he was when he could speak for himself. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Proper use of measurements can help in setting a system up and as a troubleshooting aid if a person hears something wrong with their system. I agree. But have we been discussing troubleshooting in all these threads? No. Have I made any arguments about troubleshooting? No. So, I don't see that this advances any particular argument about the quality of sound vis a vis cables and wires. Don, describe for me your "sound style." What are your goals when you listen to your stereo? It seems like many people desire to improve their systems, so they read the audio magazines hoping to find the solution to the particular issue that is bothering them. They are not going to find much information about solving problems in the selection of magazines on the newsstands today. What they will find is a lot of advertising for various audio products along with reviews of those audio products. A reviewer may write, "Cable XYZ removed the veil from the music and made it sound sparkling and lifelike" or something like that. So the poor listener buys the product in the hope that this will solve the problem he is hearing on his system. At this point 2 things will happen: 1) He hears no difference. 2) He hears a difference. 1) If he hears no difference he might take the cables back to the store where the salesman might say, "These cables require a break-in period of several weeks or months". So the listener goes home to "break in" his cables. Of course, there is no such thing as "cable break-in", but after a period of time the listener may think the cables have broken-in and delude himself into thinking he has achieved the improvement he was seeking. Or not. 2) If he actually hears a positive difference he is happy, thinking the new cables have solved the problem that he heard. Most of the time the improvement he heard was because the connections on his old cable had loosened and/or had some corrosion issues. The action of unplugging the old cable cleaned the jack combined with the new cable's clean connectors have solved the issue that was interfering with his enjoyment of the music. He could have saved some time and money by troubleshooting the problem then cleaning the connectors on his old cable. It is a good idea to periodically clean the connections on any sound system to prevent those sorts of issues from ever happening, but most non-technical types don't do this. They were never told to do so in the magazines because the magazines are mostly in the business of helping their advertisers sell their products. As far as my "sound style", I listen to a variety of music from classical to country, gospel to rock. I expect my system to reproduce whatever I decide to play and to sound as close to what it sounded like when I heard the music live as possible. As far as I can tell, most of that is another polemic about your mistrust of manufacturers and salesmen and companies and such. Yeah, old news. I get it. You don't want to get ripped off. You are carrying Marty's banner that all audio hobbyists are suckers getting ripped off every day, and your goal is to save them the pain. Ok. No, it's an example of how troubleshooting a problem can lead to a quicker and more satisfactory result than randomly purchasing a product and merely hoping it helps solve an audio problem. The rest of your assumptions about cleaning off the connections and so on, are just crazy unsupported guesses about something you have no way to know. You're throwing up resistance in the form of absurdity. You're in the know as to what ever cable buy experiences, and why. I doubt that. Something I have no way to know? How dare you suggest that I am making crazy, unsupported guesses. How dare I? Here's how I dare. What you said above is: "If he actually hears a positive difference he is happy, thinking the new cables have solved the problem that he heard. Most of the time the improvement he heard was because the connections on his old cable had loosened and/or had some corrosion issues. The action of unplugging the old cable cleaned the jack combined with the new cable's clean connectors have solved the issue that was interfering with his enjoyment of the music." How can that not be a guess, Don? How would you possibly know why guys buy cables, and what their result is? You're simply transferring some other experience you have in HAM radio or something and pretending all those examples apply to guys who bought expensive cables. It's worse than a guess actually, it's just pure BS posturing as knowledge. If that is true, then what you wrote is more of the same. How can you know differently? "I've been fooling with electronics since I was a licensed amateur radio operator at the age of 14, and in my 52 years of electronics experience the most common problems with electronic equipment are connections and grounding. What I gave was solid advice regarding audio equipment maintenance. As far as audio cables go, IMO most of the boutique brands are ripoffs, at least the ones I've heard (or more accurately, not heard. Right. You don't hear it, but others do. As for what is a ripoff, no matter what you think, or I think, people have a right to over spend on cables, speakers, cars, cigars, wine, diamonds and haircuts. For many people $8000 speakers would be a huge ripoff. Don't even bring up $39,000 speakers. But, we don't operate in a world where you decide what people can spend on wire. I don't decide what people spend on wire or anything else, for that matter. But when I recognize a load of in advertising, I feel obligated to warn others about the fraudulent claims. If they don't pay attention and waste their money unnecessarily that's up to them. Why do you have a problem with that? The BBB does that sort of thing all the time. Mostly there was no difference to hear). Just read the ads in the magazines or on the cable guys' websites. These guys should get the Nobel Prize in Pseudoscience. You should create the prize, and then spend all your time reviewing the ads and handing out the awards if you feel strongly about it. Most others just turn the page. That's was a joke, of course. What the fraudulent advertisers should really get is hefty fines or jail time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungkiman Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Dudley is well respected to people that agree with him, but he only represents his own opinion. To believe he also represents mine would be folly. Mallette's "Likey" makes the same point, but with an exemplary degree of subtlety. He's a critic. So, of course he cites his own opinion. I am not understanding why you would expect him to represent your opinion? Are you saying you don't like critics? Or are you saying you don't like Dudley as a critic because his views differ from yours? I'm suggesting that you're only an opinion. Everyone has one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 "...What would be your comments on that speaker?" That anyone here using a 2" tractrix horn with a BMS 4592-MID, Beyma CP-25 tweeter, and a well engineered set of networks - already basically owns that loudspeaker for about a quarter of the money. It's a LaScala with a top section that was engineered by others and has been used around here for years. He made them pretty, and hauled them from one end of the country to the other until Dudley fell over them. Dudley has good ears and is an excellent writer, but after reading his response to ALK regarding the issue of intellectual property and credit - I no longer have any respect for the man whatsoever. Besides, the internal wiring looks like the cheap hookup wire from Parts Express. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungkiman Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 I'm just saying I've never heard an audiophile restrict their expression to two words. Sounds as if you have never heard an "audiophile" with a strong enough opinion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Here's a simple question: is there a point beyond which larger speaker cables cause a deterioration in the perceived sound coming from the speakers? ... Other than cost and weight, is there a point at which other factors (capacitance, inductance, etc.) become more significant than lowered resistance/impedance, and make the sound less appealing? Yes! Absolutely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 I suggest reading the entire piece in full to get the entire picture he paints. Really? Picture painting? Somehow if I read the entire article very closely a few times I am going to get something different from "...scoots along?" That was hardly the only stretch in there, but I pick on it because it's utterly meaningless and no amount of explanation could possibly make it useful information. I recall several magazines from the past, and perhaps there are some now, who would present a host of technical measurements and such, and then cover what it sounded like in the summary. I still subscribe to $tereophile, as it's cheap entertainment and on occasion I find something useful there. On equipment reviews, I look at the equipment, then the price. If the price is ridiculous for something I already own that performs (for my deaf ears) flawlessly, I move on. If it is completely absurd, insane, and beyond any comprehension I read a bit for both amusement as well as to see if I can determine what creative technology they've employed to slap such a price on a piece of gear and manage to keep a straight face. Art gets no bunnies from me for some of the bending he's done. All of us who work for the "man" are forced into doing things that may violate our professional views. $tereophile as an "authority" ended for me when I received, from a Forum member, their piano recording from 10 years or so ago done by their "best" headed by John Atkinson hisself. The member said "It's awful..." I fully agreed. Won't revisit, but upon reading their pages of how they used only virgin copper blessed by Druids at Stonehenge at the solstice, etc, and gear totaling some 200k, and listened to their "extra" track of the person walking back and forth across the stage (REALLY????), then looked at their microphone plan in total disbelief, I listened. Let's just say I wasn't impressed. The rest remains recorded back in the Forum archives where I uploaded "blind" files, one of my own recording done with less than 2k of equipment and theirs. The verdict was NOT resounding as I'd expected...however, I did beat them by around 60% and those who favored mine were MUCH more articulate...and gave accurate descriptions of the image and other qualities I had direct knowledge of...than those unsure or favoring the other recording. Further, several of those who favored the other recording were articulate and clear enough to determine that, in two cases, they had their channels reversed, and at least one who clearly had speakers with reversed polarity. That said, it's a lot for me like picking the facts from the news media. They are in there, but re-packaged and spun for various reasons to the point that it requires considerable effort to determine the truth. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 I don't consider "like" and "don't like" representative of a strong opinion. Try telling your wife on Valentine's Day you like her. Good grief... AAMOF, my wife once asked me precisely that after I'd expressed my love. "But do you LIKE me?" I really like my K'horns, but I NEVER invite them to bed and don't think I've ever tried to French kiss one. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 I really like my K'horns, but I NEVER invite them to bed and don't think I've ever tried to French kiss one. Not feeling horny? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Not feeling horny? This isn't the "coffee and cables" thread, Carl... Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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