Mallette Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Good. What are those subjective criteria you use? Simple question, Dave. It can be answered by most people in a few sentences. I either like it, or I don't Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Would not Moby Dick be as enjoyable and communicate the same story on Kindle or finely bound gold leafed paper? Objectively it should, yet you say some need more. Subjectively to them it improves their experience. Maybe not mine though. Now we are back to subjectivity and whether someone cares about that aspect or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) We know they're making fraudulent claims, but that's not the point of the discussion. Fraudulent claims doesn't do away with the fact that wire is an interface that effects the behavior of the components it's connected to, or that some wire types or topology are more ideal than others. If you had read the Audioholics articles describing their cable tests and the conclusions they drew from those test results you would find that they agree with what you wrote that I highlighted in boldface. Basically, they can hear differences in some of the wires they tested and the differences can be explained by the wire's electrical characteristics that they measured. http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/skin-effect-relevance-in-speaker-cables http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/cable-distortion-and-dielectric-biasing-debunked http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/top-ten-signs-an-audio-cable-vendor-is-selling-you-snake-oil http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/speaker-cable-gauge Their recommendations of the Kimber and Blue Jeans speaker cables are based on science and either of these cables would be a good choice. Neither of these cables are through-the-roof expensive. I would certainly trust what these guys say before I would believe what the snake oil peddlers claim regarding their products. This is back from page 2. Don is basically agreeing with me and I'm basically agreeing with Don. Mark was forced into expanding on the topic of subjective analysis because we somehow went from agreeing on these measureable differences being audible to a discussion of the cost/improvement ratio. So let's back up. A pair of nice 8' Kimber 8TC braided cables will set you back about $300 or so. Don says that's not too expensive. Five years ago I would have agreed with him, but today, that's a lot of money to me, I simply can't afford to do that kind of thing anymore. Does this cable improve the sound of the system, and do I think it's $300 worth of improvement? Yes, I do, and I'm praying I can get the same dielectric/geometry from Blue Jean Cable. This thread has morphed quite a bit and we are now covering a lot of different ground. I THINK we agree that there are measureable differences that can be heard, though not always. I THINK we agree that you don't have to go broke buying wire, but that it doesn't hurt to use something with a good reputation, that both measures well and has a reputation for producing good results with most equipment. I THINK we agree that spending six figures on wire is absurd, but if someone chooses to do it, who cares? They may or may not hear a difference. We HAVE TO AGREE that it's okay to use all kinds of different words to help us help each other get to where we are trying to get. If you like a system that provides a lot of detail and clarity without feeling like someone's drilling a hole in your ear -- I can't help you get there unless I use words that encompass that realm. If you like gritting your teeth and wincing while listening at live listening levels, I highly recommend "the perfect standard" 16 AWG electrical lamp cord from Home Depot. Edited February 7, 2014 by DeanG 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 The words are the same. The concepts are the same. The brain receives the message the same. The only difference I see is the hedonistic aspect of fine craftsmanship. That is a different part of the experience which is apart from the core. But that is my subjective opinion. If they need all that nice packaging (yes it is mere packaging) then they can have it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Funny though. This is a hobby all about sound and listening, and you chose to say "Examine" it. No person I know has ever used the word examine when they meant listen. Your complaining here is your own fault. You can say "doh" all you want, Don as a cover for your inarticulate writing. It's not my writing, it's your poor reading comprehension skills that are at fault. Perhaps you should go to an adult education center and take some remedial courses. Like the sign says," illiteracy is no joke." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Would not Moby **** Good Lord, OT, watch your language! It's "Moby Penis" now. Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 I have some friends that are way crazy into literary art.....and they absolutely care about the "quality of the paper" because they have found that it affects the way in which they receive the words on the page....even though it's the same words. That's nothing, Mike. I recently learned that MILLIONS of people were buying new 60" and bigger TVs to watch a football game because they thought the "quality of the screen" effected the way in which they receive the images on the screen, even though it's the same football game! HOLY SMOKES! Haha! Now that's a way better analogy! So the more important question.... Will the individual that feels that it's the same football game have increased enjoyment knowing they can watch it on a smaller lower resolution TV? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Dean, you have PM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Is there anyone left here who selects their audio gear based on a list of subjective criteria, or aspects of sound? I use single ended tube amps purely because of subjective preference, at least when I'm in the mood for that sort of thing. That qualifies, doesn't it? Just to qualify that, I suppose I still view such devices not so much as "amps" but rather "sound processors that amplify a little bit", but my power needs are low, and my perception of the "process" is improved realism. You happy? I am. Finally. I might be tempted to follow up and ask what it is about the sound that is realistic to you, but I don't want to traumatize you. I understand that threads morph, and no, I don't have a problem with it. Sometimes it's not a bad idea to attach a context to something though if you decide to go off track. The issue I had earlier was that TDK threw something into the mix that didn't contain anything as it related to the disussion at that point, it just seemed kind of "out there" -- which is why you ended up having to explain to me what he even meant! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 No the marketing question is whether they will pay for it. Good. What are those subjective criteria you use? Simple question, Dave. It can be answered by most people in a few sentences. I either like it, or I don't Dave Ok. So, whenever you selected say, an amplifier to use, would it be fair to say that the first one you liked, you selected, and have used since then? In other words, you don't try other amplifiers and other gear? You don't as we say, pursue some ideal? Now you are hitting at the crux of what some call the "hobby." If the music sounds good to music lover, and they enjoy their system each time they use it, they don't go pursuing something else. But from what I can tell of those who deem it a "hobby" good enough is never good enough. They must spend to try something else. They know there must be some "ideal." It's not a hobby to everyone. Some just like the music. It's the same for the reader. The power of "The Idiot" is in the words of Dostoevsky. Apparently some also want rich corinthian leather or it's somehow lessened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Ok. So, whenever you selected say, an amplifier to use, would it be fair to say that the first one you liked, you selected, and have used since then? In other words, you don't try other amplifiers and other gear? You don't as we say, pursue some ideal? In a way, you are correct. My first amp was a Grommes "Little Jewel" that was thoroughly loved to death when I got it and paired with my Frazier Super Monte Carlos. That was supplanted as it got very intermittent with a Dynaco SCA-35. It sounded no better, but it was in better shape. Then, I was smitten with SS when it came out. New technology, MUST be better! Went down that trail for a long time before getting back to tubes that sound no better than my original "Little Jewel." Still have the Super Monte Carlos as well...I LIKE them. Objectivity has lead me constantly into error when allowed to override "I like it." If it sounds good, it IS good. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 So, if a subject is asked, "How does this perfume smell to you?" He offers a subjective response, like - - "Old, flowery, and filled with love and affection." And the objectivist jumps off the chair and says, "I know every ingredient in that perfume! There is no such ingredient as "affection" and this man is a fraud!" Tortured example. Most folks, including myself, respond "That smell reminds me of..." If confronted with your suggested response, a REAL objectivist would say "...this man is a fraud" but would want to find how just why he responded as he did. Yeah, I know, I am obfuscating, blah, blah. Not really, just pointing out that you often construct very unlikely scenarios that fit your needs but don't reflect reality. Some pages back...quite a few now...we reached, for a moment, a consensus that the world wasn't made up of objectivists and subjectivists, but of a wide variety of folks who tended one way or the other, maybe one side on one piece of equipment and the other on another. Personally, I do not know of a single person I would classify as 100% one or the other. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) I am. Finally. I might be tempted to follow up and ask what it is about the sound that is realistic to you, but I don't want to traumatize you. No trauma involved. I figured if a particular amp topology can make Arny Kruger apopleptic that it must be worth a try. And single ended tube amps are cheap. So I tried it. And I liked it. Subjectively, it seemed more clear, more natural, more transparent. Basically, it seemed to get out of the way of the music (in spite of the fact that it was demonstrably adding coloration to it). On dry studio recordings, it's like being plugged directly into the mixing console, and for the wet, live recordings, the 'audio holodeck' effect in spades. Linear amps in comparison seem to provide a big, bold, but two dimensional IMAX style presentation, at least to my ears. Edited February 7, 2014 by Ski Bum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Ahhh. It's subjective. One persons good enough is not anothers. Perhaps some draw the line at expensive cables. Perhaps they recognize that different cables especially of different materials will sound different but that they are not willing to experiment through their pocket books because they don't make a big enough difference to justify the cost. In their opinion of course. Much like they can read a book in kindle, paperback, hardback, or deluxe executive version and value the words over incidental packaging. I may care enough about cables, and I might care less enough to worry about it. I might even enjoy a good review of cables, much as you have enjoyed my movie reviews. Want another one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Of all the different amplifier topologies I tried over the years, the single ended types were always very sensitive to changes in wire, especially the interconnects. Why are you using all of those weird words? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Of all the different amplifier topologies I tried over the years, the single ended types were always very sensitive to changes in wire, especially the interconnects. Why are you using all of those weird words? I thought you would appreciate my motivation being a cantankerous objectivist's rantings. No? Oh, well. The weekend is upon us, Dean, cheer up. Is that SE sensitivity to interconnects universal, or a matter of the designer's choice? Seems to me that one should pick a tube amp with input impedance >1Kohm, preferably >10Kohms or even higher, if it's single ended, pp, ss, or whatever. Then would the impedance mis-match between components is avoided, no need for any particularly special interconnect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiser SET say Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Seriously, 30 pages for copper wire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 It doesn't look like you read much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiser SET say Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) Oh yeah, I have a great understanding of measurments and subjectivity thanks to Don and Mark Edited February 7, 2014 by kaiser SET say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiser SET say Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 It's all about the pretty jackets, afterall everyone knows every guys crazy about a sharpe dressed cable Then you got your real special ones jacked up on CRYO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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